Needs Help: Revive Kills Zombie

Okay, there's multiple problems here. First off, is that someone unilaterally tried to "reverse trope drift", but actually enforced it. It's supposed to be for when enemies can be defeated by an often overlooked tactic that's generally useful only for that specific enemy... but due to the title, it had been drifting for a long time toward Exactly What It Says on the Tin.

Now, doing that may be a good idea, since the title was so counter-intuitive for what the trope was actually supposed to be that the trope drift was pervasive and inevitable — making it what it sounds like and relocating the examples that don't fit that definition was probably the only realistic way to save it — since a rename would leave the trope of "healing hurts undead" unlisted. However, the way they did it was unilateral, sans approval, and ended up entirely nuking a huge number of examples instead of moving them to more appropriate tropes, or creating more appropriate tropes if they did not exist.

EDIT: Just removing the perhaps-combative last line there.

edited 19th Mar '12 6:17:05 PM by Nezumi

I think I can see what you mean there. The Laconic disagrees with the actual page definition.

edited 19th Mar '12 6:14:23 PM by ThatHuman

The edit history points to polutropon.

I'm actually confused. Is this Exactly What It Says on the Tin, or some other gameplay mechanic at this point?

I think this page actually used to be about what the laconic says, but people kept adding literal examples of "healing items injure undead".

edit: Yep, used to be.

edited 19th Mar '12 6:15:34 PM by ThatHuman

This trope was originally what the laconic says. I can confirm that. Someone just got confused by the trope drift and decided to enforce the drift rather than the trope.

Hmmm, yes, it appears so.

Making such a change unilaterally doesn't seem right.

Suggestion: Do a trope transplant. Leave this name with the new definition, and YKTTW the original trope under a better name.

Also, should polutropon be notified?

I put this up here instead of just going in and fixing it myself because... well, there's a reason this happened, and it might actually be a good idea to do what they did if it was handled more effectively. Namely, the name is broken. Not only does the name itself almost exclusively suggest the drift rather than the proper definition, but it also encourages wicks that use that definition. (For instance, Our Zombies Are Different uses "Revive Kills Zombie" to mean "Undead are hurt by magic that heals the living.")

I agree that this is probably the best solution. Anyone else have any alternatives?

edited 19th Mar '12 6:23:55 PM by Nezumi

Oh, okay, so this was supposed to be like Not Completely Useless, but for things that weren't useless in the first place.

I'm okay with that solution too.

edited 19th Mar '12 6:26:03 PM by abk0100

Ooh, I like that. Trope Transplant the supertrope to a new name and leave this one just for the undead.

That sounds good. I must admit that I've been guilty of thinking it meant "healing hurts the undead". Because, well, that's a common trope.

It wasn't at the time the article was written, (this is one of our oldest tropes) but it's become it's own trope since then.

Missing Super Trope Syndrome from the looks of it.

As Revive Kills Zombie (Post drift) could be a subtrope of the original meaning.

edited 19th Mar '12 8:47:30 PM by Ghilz

No, not Missing Super Trope Syndrome. The supertrope was always there. The problem is the subtrope being more common than anything else in the supertrope.

Anyone have ideas for a name for the supertrope?

What about Grapple Beam Kills Draygon? (kidding!)

For reference, here's what the old description said:

Situation where an enemy can be beaten with a simple but sometimes overlooked strategy utilizing a single technique or item.

The most famous example is any game system where undead enemies can be quickly defeated with health items or by casting healing/revival magic. From a gameplay standpoint, this simply allows healing skills to do double duty as Turn Undead, and makes the party's dedicated healer not-so-useless when your party is asked to explore that ancient crypt at night. Logically, it's often explained or assumed that the source of healing magic (usually nature or the divine) is anathema to the undead. This particular example is one of the worst cases of Guide Dang It!, since it's unintuitive to cast a healing spell on an enemy if players are unfamiliar with this trope.

This sometimes applies to a boss whose only real danger is a "Charged Attack". You merely have to blast one to interrupt the countdown. Sometimes, doing so will even kill them from Phlebotinum Overload. This can be the video game equivalent of an Eigen Plot for underused classes, abilities, items, etc. Contrast Contractual Boss Immunity, when villains who should have a similar vulnerability to a hero's powers aren't due to game rule fiat.

edited 19th Mar '12 8:58:08 PM by abk0100

This is the oldest version of the page from archive.org A bit shorter than The examples there also show that the trope didn't revolve around "undead are injured by healing" back then.

edited 19th Mar '12 9:06:07 PM by ThatHuman

So the key sentence has always been "Situation where a tough enemy who can beaten with a simple but sometimes overlooked strategy utilizing a single technique or item."

Probably a name with "Achilles Heel" or "Weakness" or "Weak Point" in it.

Wait this was something more than the literal Revive Kills Zombie and Anti-Petrifaction (Soft, Gold Needle etc.) item kills animated statues type thing?

edited 20th Mar '12 2:14:02 AM by Raso

I agree with doing a trope transplant and making Revive Kills Zombie purely about healing items and spells hurting the undead.

I think the supertrope is Useless Useful Spell (or Useful Useless Spell, I keep confusing the two).

Transplant is good: "healing items injure undead" is an extremely common trope.

Out Of The Box Tactic?

Unorthadox Tactics For The Win?

I like Out Of The Box Tactic.

Outside-the-Box Tactic might be better. "Out of the box" sounds like a couple other things, like the tactic coming with the game if it's a Programming Game.

Outside-the-Box Tactic is good

Bumpy. Should get a single prop crowner going on?

Outside-the-Box Tactic sounds good for a supertrope to the specific and common Revive Kills Zombie. (A certain boss in FFX uses this against you of all things, That One Boss for those who don't have Fire eater on your gear.)

For things like Final Fantasy has Soft or Gold Needle that will Cure Petrification but also will One-Hit KO Animated Stone enemies and stuff like that.

Using Reflect on yourself making a boss kill himself or Making a self reflected spell to bypass an enemy with reflect as you can't reflect a reflected spell (enemies use this tactic too.)

Or gear that absorbs elements thus making a damage spell a heal, which helps in area where you can't use healing spells, or enimes who use only one element

Casting Shell (Beneficial spell that halves 'all magic including healing spell.) on a boss that heals themselves halving that heal.

Using a normal spell on certain enemies that does something different, like in World Of Warcraft using a fire spell on a boss in Kara called Strawman makes him panic.

Some bosses that are weak to a Useless Useful Spell when most if not all the others are immune to them. Like Final Fantasy V's Odin being weak to petrification

edited 26th Mar '12 10:36:33 PM by Raso