Needs Help: Innocent Fanservice Girl

Deadlock Clock: 21st May 2013 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [154]
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51 lebrel19th Mar 2012 01:39:13 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] Good idea. Nudist has a fairly specific real-world meaning; if we're not referencing that meaning we shouldn't call it that.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Casual Nudity has been used in other situations to describe the situation of having one character be nude without expressly stating nudist beliefs, or otherwise making a huge deal out of it. Plus, I think it flows better as a title than Casually Nude.

edited 19th Mar '12 1:39:58 PM by KiTA

53 Fighteer19th Mar 2012 01:41:13 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
One describes a philosophy, the other describes a character. We do not want to get them confused, if possible. Casual Nudist would be the more proper term but it runs into the confusion with the actual Nudist. However, I'll let that one ride on a vote; I don't care enough about it one way or the other.

edited 19th Mar '12 1:41:37 PM by Fighteer

54 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 01:41:48 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
I like Casual Nudity. It's just the right amount of broad for a supertrope.

Why don't we do that for a supertrope with No Nudity Taboo as a subtrope? Maybe Seductive Nudity for the third concept.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Not sure if that was directed at me — Casual Nudity doesn't really describe a philosophy per say (Nudity isn't a philosophy), and using this as a trope would cover instances where it's not characterization but rather actions.

Grace, for example, is defined as a character as being Raised by Wolves, her No Nudity Taboo (and later belief in Casual Nudity) is a side effect of this.
56 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 01:45:35 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
I'm not so sure it should be a character trope for anything other than type 1. The latter two are things that don't show up constant.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I do like the idea of a supertrope — as a subtrope of Nudity Tropes, of course, which is broad enough to cover everything. Would Seductive Nudity be a subtrope of Casual Nudity (and an aversion of said trope) or would it be it's own thing?

edited 19th Mar '12 1:48:51 PM by KiTA

58 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 01:51:19 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
I do think there is something to be salvaged out of the concept of a character giving fanservice and not realising it. That's something we have a lot of wiks for and seems to be a real character type. It's just not No Nudity Taboo.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I do think what might be called Innocent Ms Fanservice and Shameless Ms Fanservice could be tropes, yes.
Cure Candy
I see them as this...

  • Reluctant Fanservice Girl: Blackmailed into wearing skimpy sexy clothing very reluctantly do they wear it. (Love Hina dedicated an entire chapter to getting Motoko into something like this till they just went with something very girly but proper, Girl Ranma this is standard.)
  • Innocent Fanservice Girl: Girl who wears something skimpy or such, maybe because of her culture, maybe with a No Nudity Taboo but not always. Also can be manipulated to wearing something sexy just cause she doesn't know any better.
  • Shameless Fanservice Girl: She knows she is all that and is more than willing to flaunt it. Someone tries to get a Panty Shot she lifts up her skirt and shows them just for titillation.

Can there be overlap between 2 and 3? yes Su in Love Hina switches between both depending on the chapter. (although shameless is mostly for the Lutz from Keitaro's reactions.)

edited 19th Mar '12 3:06:25 PM by Raso

[up] Agree with that. I don't see a good enough reason to get rid of the name Innocent Fanservice Girl - we just need to redefine it a bit.
62 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 03:10:10 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up] Those definitions have no relation to what the tropes currently are and how they're being used. Turning the tropes into that would be very hard.

I think the name itself is tainted. It's going to either need to be much broader than Raso's definition and include any fanservice at all. (The current usage.) Or they're going to need to be cut out of troper vocabularies.

edited 19th Mar '12 3:11:28 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Let's migrate towards Casual Nudity as a supertrope. We can get that started and then prune things out with the subtropes.

Innocent Fanservice Girl is on par with some of the Tropes of Legend (having similar or more inbounds as some of them), so there's going to be some natural resistance against a rename. Getting a Supertrope and some alternative tropes in play so we can migrate some of the more erroneous examples out will ease things up a bit, I think.

Casual Nudity
Laconic: A character is nude, but they don't see anything sexual about it.

No Nudity Taboo / Innocent Fanservice Girl
Laconic: Character has no taboo about being nude nor being seen while nude, often to the point of not understanding the concept of clothing. (Note that this still would not preclude this character as being Ms. Fanservice, and is often used as part of a Establishing Character Moment.)

Laconic: Character is comfortable being naked in private or in social situations, occasionally to the discomfort of others.

Ugly Nudist
Laconic: Naked People Are Funny: This nudist is not attractive, and their nudity is played for Fandisservice.

Foreign Nudist
Laconic: Foreigners are often portrayed as being more accepting of Casual Nudity than Americans.

Laconic: Character gains enjoyment due to shocking others with lewd behavior, often involving nudity.

Streaker (or Streaking)
Laconic: Character runs through area while naked in order to disrupt and shock.

edited 19th Mar '12 4:08:57 PM by KiTA

64 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 03:57:31 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Two things.

1) A better laconic for Casual Nudity might be "A character is nude, but they don't see anything sexual about it." The bit about fanservice just isn't true.

2) Your definition of nudist seems off from both how the word is defined and how the term is used in media.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
As for #1: Yeah, I suppose that one works better. Perhaps instead of Fanservice, I should have said "titillation" or whatnot. The idea is the character isn't attempting to be sexual or erotic with the nudity, per say, which doesn't preclude fanservice.

As for #2: Hm, kinda. I was trying to prune it down to a Laconic one liner and it's rather difficult.

Part of the problem is if you look into Naturism and Nudism as a belief system, it really is very varied — if you ask 10 nudists what Nudism is, you'll get 13 answers. The only common theme is a belief that "Nude isn't Lewd." It doesn't mean they live on a colony, doesn't mean they go to nude beaches, doesn't even mean they go nude in social situations, etc etc — those aren't 100% common threads amongst all nudists.

Most times I've seen it in media, however, it's involved one character being casually nude (or partially nude) while the others try not to leer too openly, or generally look very uncomfortable. There's usually no middle ground — either the character is attractive to the other characters or they're put off by the idea of being near a naked person.

There are some FA Qs out there, from the AANR and TNS, if you wish to do further reading.

edited 19th Mar '12 5:02:33 PM by KiTA

66 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 04:53:36 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
So what you're saying is nudist isn't a trope, but there are tropes about nudists.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I dunno if I'd phrase it that way, but yeah, specific tropes like Ugly Nudist are clearly easier to define.

At the same time however, there is a clear difference between say, Doctor Manhattan from Watchmen and post-character development Grace from El Goonish Shive. Hell, Grace even uses her previous Innocent Fanservice Girl tendencies to tease Tedd with — a far cry from "what is so wrong with my body that nobody wants to see it?"

But maybe you're right, perhaps just roll any "nudist" characters either into No Nudity Taboo or Casual Nudity. If written properly and open-ended enough Casual Nudity would encompass pretty much anything I would suggest shunting to a sub-trope.

I do think the subtropes like Ugly Nudist are worth keeping, though, as they are their own thing.
68 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 05:37:15 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Oh, I agree Ugly Nudist is it's own trope. I just think Doctor Manhattan can fit under casual nudity. He's nude, but he sees nothing sexual about it.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I think Manhattan would fit under No Nudity Taboo... But I guess there's no rule about not being in both.

I keep trying to make a distinction in my mind between the two, but almost by definition anyone with No Nudity Taboo is going to go under Casual Nudity. Guess that's what it means by Supertrope, eh? :)

Manhattan's nudity is an allegory for his increasing detachment with normal humans, which is an odd place to define it. It's never covered if he actually has the nudity taboo anymore, or if he's just at a point where he doesn't see the point (and thus has lost the taboo).

edited 19th Mar '12 5:48:04 PM by KiTA

70 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 05:49:22 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Well, as Casual Nudity is going to be the supertrope to No Nudity Taboo and it doesn't fit in the subtrope, throw it in the supertrope rather than play Square Pen Round Trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Sounds like a plan. I'll start writing up a little draft for Casual Nudity and a new intro for No Nudity Taboo. Are Alice and Bob intros not kosher anymore? There originally was one for Invisible Streaker but it was cut long ago by part of the Very Serious Tropers' war on puns and silliness.

Did we ever decide about the "other" branch? (Seductive Nudity, Exhibitionist, etc?) I'm not so sure about those, but clearly Streaking or Streaker is a trope, at the very least.

edited 19th Mar '12 6:05:10 PM by KiTA

72 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 06:05:57 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Very Serious Troper should have been reported at Ask The Tropers. Cutting silliness and fun that doesn't make the trope unclear isn't cool. We like silly and fun as long as it doesn't get in the way of the trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Casual Nudity Placeholder Sandbox (Will be Updated):

Bob is estatic! He finally gets to interview his favorite author, Alice. He heads over to do the interview at Alice's private estate with his agent, only to discover that she is sunbathing "au naturel" at the side of her pool with some friends. Embarassed beyond belief, Bob turns around to give Alice a chance to save her modesty... but she doesn't, instead insisting on starting the interview immediately.

Unfortunately for Bob, Alice has no problems with Casual Nudity.

A character appears nude or partially undressed without any sexual intent. While fanservice is not out of the question*, the character itself generally will have no lewd intentions with their nudity — they simply feel comfortable being naked in this particular situation, and see no reason to dress.

This can be indicative of a more comprehensive philosophy (Nudism / Naturism), a specific cultural thing, or merely a quirk of the character. This is occasionally used as a Establishing Character Moment — Depending on how the situation plays out, the character can be played up as Mr. Fanservice or The Vamp, a quirky Granola Girl, an extremely self confident adult, or a ditz of the highest order.

A character's reaction to a situation like this can also be used as a Establishing Character Moment — is the viewer confident enough to meet the naked character's gaze full on? Is he or she lascivious enough to sneak a peek (or openly leer)? Are they so timid they cannot even argue the point, instead stammering and trying desperately to get away?

The reaction of the other characters typically fall under two variants — either the characters will be enchanted by the other character's nudity or they will be extremely uncomfortable being around a naked person — characters that have other reactions (like calling their "buff" or joining in) are rare exceptions.

A common subtrope is to have the nude character honestly have No Nudity Taboo — the character is completely oblivious that someone would find their nudity shocking and upsetting.

The Foreign Exchange Student will occasionally be caught walking around the house naked or sunbathing topless, mostly because Europeans Are Kinky like that. In the US media, Casual Nudity was almost exclusively the realm of Foreign Fanservice for a great many years, although recent trends in various B-Movie franchises have begun to change this.

Very much Truth in Television — most cultures have varying views on what exactly is appropriate dress and where, with America having one of the more restrictive viewpoints on nudity and topfreedom. Topfree or clothesfree sunbathing is not an uncommon sight in European beaches and many parks, whereas similar activities would get you arrested rather abruptly in the United States.

Many cultures have Casual Social Nudity — Finland's love of nude saunas is legendary, and bath-houses and clothing-free hot springs in Japan are still communal to this day.

Edit Log: Fixed mention of Please Put Some Clothes On being rare (not sure how that got through my mental editing).

edited 19th Mar '12 7:14:56 PM by KiTA

74 shimaspawn19th Mar 2012 06:58:43 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Please Put Some Clothes On is actually one of the reactions I see the most. I wouldn't call it rare.

edited 19th Mar '12 7:08:35 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
No Nudity Taboo Placeholder Sandbox (Will be Updated):

->"What I want to know is what is so wrong with my body that nobody wants to see it?!" —>— Grace, El Goonish Shive

A character with no taboo about nudity and being seen while nude. While rarely seen walking around the streets 24x7 in the altogether, a character without a nudity taboo will, by definition, have no qualms about being seen in the nude or undressing when they feel comfortable doing so — and they often feel comfortable doing so in places that most others would consider wildly inappropriate.

The character themselves will have no lewd thoughts in mind when undressing — in fact, without a nudity taboo, the very idea that someone could have lewd thoughts over mere nudity usually comes as a bit of a shock. A character without a nudity taboo simply places no value whatsoever on body shame and other forms of modesty in regard to a naked human body.

Varying levels of understanding (or the lack thereof) can come into play — a character may be anywhere along the spectrum fro completely oblivious to the very idea of wearing clothing to understanding that other people do have a problem with nudity, but being unable to grasp why.

A common justification is that the character is ostensibly inhuman enough to supposedly not need clothing, like the Zora of the Zelda games, certain Furries or Weres (with or without Non-Mammal Mammaries), or of course, practically any kind of pixie. This subtype is so overwhelmingly commonplace with these inhuman characters that it usually does not come into play at all, making it an Averted Trope.

... Until they change shape into a human body for a while, that is. At that point, the character's penchant for nudity is a very serious problem that must be addressed, immediately.

In a more meta sense, this trope is also frequently used to reveal that the character has an entirely different, unusual mindset:

  • The Emotionless Girl and Robot Girl may genuinely not understand what everyone's getting upset about. (Showing a lack of humanity.)
  • Raised by Wolves and Raised by Natives characters will simply not understand why nudity is a problem for everyone else. (Showing a lack of civilization.)
  • The Green-Skinned Space Babe may feel that people with a nudity taboo are backwards and primative. (Showing that her culture has Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions.)
  • The local goddess-avatar might not fully understand why this "nudity" thing is getting in the way of proper worship, but it had better stop. (Showing arrogance and a inhuman set of priorities.)
  • The Sugar And Ice Girl and Genki Girl might not understand why the Unlucky Childhood Friend is getting upset — after all, they've been together for years, right? (Showing how close she considers the main character.)
    • As a common evolution of this sub-trope, the first outward symptom of a growing attraction or romantic awareness is when she does start caring that he is watching, or when he begins to become flustered.

Special mention goes to "Feral Children" stories — Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book and Edgar Rice Burroughs's Tarzan being the biggest ones here, where a character is raised in a situation where they simply don't learn human body shame. In these cases, the taboo is simply never learned in the first place, the nudity is depicted for realism or for other reasons necessary for carrying the story, and neither fanservice nor Freud are anywhere in sight. (Until Disney or or other adaptors make them randomly decide to wear a loin cloth, for obvious reasons.)

A subtrope of Casual Nudity. See also: Naked People Are Funny, Please Put Some Clothes On, Wild Child, National Geographic Nudity, Exposed Extraterrestrials.

Edit Log:
  • Added "Varying levels" paragraph.

edited 19th Mar '12 7:14:02 PM by KiTA

Total posts: 154
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