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Unclear Definition (new crowner 9/18): Planet Eris get usage counts

 26 johnnye, Mon, 19th Mar '12 5:33:45 PM from Brighton, UK Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
The defining part of Planet Eris seems to be the Like Reality Unless Noted aspect. In a Fantasy Kitchen Sink, you pretty much expect that all myths are true if it isn't explicitly stated — if someone's trying to hunt down a vampire your first thought is "I'd hire a werewolf if I were you". On Planet Eris, you aren't exactly surprised by the revelation that werewolves exist, but you had no reason to expect them either.

edited 3rd May '12 4:14:39 PM by johnnye

Zaldrīzes buzdari iksos daor, so Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus.
 27 Dragon Quest Z, Mon, 19th Mar '12 6:05:41 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
[up]That's an odd distinction.

Would it be summed up as "new fantasy/sci-fi elements as the plot demands"?
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
[up] That's workable.

[up][up]I rather think the other way around. In a Fantasy Kitchen Sink there's usually some logic to it at least, so you'd expect there to be an explanation for things, however flimsy it may be. In Planet Eris, you're not really surprised whatever happens to show up.

Also misuse of All Myths Are True, unless you meant that there was an un-universe myth about said werewolf, in which case you'd also expect it to show up, no matter if it was Fantasy Kitchen Sink or Planet Eris.

Actually, now that I think about it, once you think about the work as belonging to either trope, you're automatically open for more. There's really no distinction in that particular area.

However, you don't expect the werewolves in Planet Eris to have their own country, or have had any effect on history. They're just there, no matter if it makes sense that they would have been unknown or had no political power up until then. In Fantasy Kitchen Sink, you'd expect them to at least have their own culture, and probably their own territories.

edited 19th Mar '12 7:52:02 PM by Feather7603

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
 29 johnnye, Tue, 20th Mar '12 12:17:00 AM from Brighton, UK Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
^Actually I was just getting Wiki Word-happy. I should have said "all myths are true" rather than All Myths Are True...
Zaldrīzes buzdari iksos daor, so Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus.
I hoped so, but it's better to not let it spread if an unwitting troper reads it.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
 31 Spark 9, Tue, 20th Mar '12 9:18:19 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
It strikes me that the definitions suggested in this thread so far have nothing to do with either the Greek or the Discordian goddess Eris.

Also, they strike me as The Same but More of Fantasy Kitchen Sink (which in itself is The Same but More of All Myths Are True).

And speaking of the description, no, Planet Eris is absolutely not the implicit default setting for webcomics and RP Gs. Whoever wrote that needs to read more webcomics and RP Gs.

Special trousers. Very heroic.
 32 Septimus Heap, Tue, 20th Mar '12 9:32:27 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Fantasy Kitchen Sink isn't All Myths Are True But More; All Myths Are True is for in-story myths. And Planet Eris is FKS which treats it as completely normal.

I think this is the distinction. Also, Planet Eris is a completely nonindicative name, I'd say.

 33 lu 127, Tue, 20th Mar '12 9:37:26 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I do find Planet Eris redundant to Fantasy Kitchen Sink. I'm not sure why a Fantasy Kitchen Sink cannot treat those things as normal. That doesn't seem to be a requirement.
何も恐れる事わ無い
 34 Spark 9, Tue, 20th Mar '12 10:48:02 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up][up] Fantasy Kitchen Sink also tends to treat it entirely normal, though.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
[up] The difference is that it's already a fantasy story, so there's less continuity to mess up. Planet Eris doesn't mess up the real world continuity, despite that it probably should.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
 36 Spark 9, Tue, 20th Mar '12 3:16:35 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Wait.

The examples for this are all over the place, but most point towards a world resembling ours but with some "supernatural" elements thrown in.

Is it required for this trope that these elements are accepted as normal? Or is it also okay if the elements are considered strange in-universe as well?

Is it required for this trope that these elements do not influence the world as a whole? Or is it also okay if they affect world politics and so forth? Is it okay if the elements are too small-scale or too rare to affect the world as a whole?

Do these elements have to be myth, or can they be random junk the author made up?

Is it required for this trope that the setting is stated to be Earth (or consists of locations that look or are named just like Earth)?

We need a clear definition of the trope first. And then, given that the trope has nothing to do with planets or with either version of Eris, we need a new name. Finally, how on earth can this have Real Life examples?

edited 20th Mar '12 3:17:08 PM by Spark9

Special trousers. Very heroic.
I'm gonna try to answer, but at this point, it's probably just about personal opinions.

  • Is it required for this trope that these elements are accepted as normal? Or is it also okay if the elements are considered strange in-universe as well?

Well, this is a tough question, as there can be some sort of masquerade. Those who don't know will think it's weird, and those who are in on it will, if not think it's normal to begin with, be rather quick to accept it.

  • Is it required for this trope that these elements do not influence the world as a whole? Or is it also okay if they affect world politics and so forth? Is it okay if the elements are too small-scale or too rare to affect the world as a whole?

For me, it's more about the implausibility of any visible effect. It can be a masquerade, but overall, the actual effect is less than it should. The point is that the odd feature they add is just tacked on with scotch tape, rather than carefully considered and fitted into the reality of the work.

  • Do these elements have to be myth, or can they be random junk the author made up?

They can be random junk. This is one difference from the other tropes.

  • Is it required for this trope that the setting is stated to be Earth (or consists of locations that look or are named just like Earth)?

I would say it is.

edited 20th Mar '12 6:35:53 PM by Feather7603

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
 38 Spark 9, Wed, 21st Mar '12 3:07:55 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] Well, that's good. I think that (after a bit more discussion) we should have a crowner here with various elements, that asks "is this element required for this trope here". That should clear up the definition. Once we've done that we can look into the name.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
Someone mentioned Science Fiction Versus Fantasy a while back; in the meantime we renamed it to Science Fantasy and made the trope about a mix of scifi and fantasy elements. It seems like most of the Planet Eris settings will be Science Fantasy to some degree.

The name Planet Eris makes perfect sense to me, but then, I am a Discordian, so we're used to fnord others not getting it. I think a key element of the trope as it stands is not just a Fantasy Kitchen Sink, but the sheer randomness with which these things appear. Fighting ghosts, then pirates, then aliens, all tied together by a plot that runs on nonsensoleum.

That said, it would be almost opposed to Cerebus Syndrome, where things become serious business and require a Cerebus Retcon to do in the wizards/scientists.

edited 18th Apr '12 5:43:55 PM by BrentLaabs

 40 ccoa, Sun, 29th Apr '12 5:58:50 AM from the Sleeping Giant
With Mod Hat On
Clocking due to lack of activity.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
The definition to me looks like Fantasy Kitchen Sink with an Extra-Strength Masquerade causing In Spite of a Nail, Played for Laughs.

Oh, and I'd always assumed the name was supposed to be in part a pun of "Planet Earth", though the page doesn't mention that...

 42 Spark 9, Sun, 29th Apr '12 9:22:25 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Okay, we'll need some kind of crowner here. Should we simply have a page action crowner to check whether to merge or rename, or should we use one to find a definition for this page first?
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 43 Twentington, Sun, 29th Apr '12 2:29:57 PM from Somewhere Relationship Status: Desperate
Mustelidae = awesome
[up]The former, I say.
Windmill, windmill for the land / Is everybody in?

World's Toughest Milkman
The Discordian in me wants to keep the name, but the scientist and SF fan in me is concerned about the potential for confusion with the recently-named real (dwarf) planet Eris. The planet hasn't appeared in many works yet, but it's likely to appear in more and more as time goes on.

Plus, Discordianism is not as mainstream or well-known as I might like, so the reference is probably too obscure for many people.

If the tropes are kept separate, the descriptions should be clarified.

edit: typo

edited 29th Apr '12 4:15:00 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
"Would it be summed up as "new fantasy/sci-fi elements as the plot demands"?"

This is, in essence, what I assumed Planet Eris to be, and why so many webcomics fall under it. Basically, Rule of Cool/Funny in a world-building sense.

edited 2nd May '12 5:47:23 PM by LostHero

 
new fantasy/scifi as the plot demands, but still Like Reality Unless Noted. So, you have wizards and time machines and people wondering what features the iPhone 5 will have and Mitt Romney's campaign staff making dumb gaffes and aliens and Zeus and Wikipedia.

 47 Dragon Quest Z, Thu, 3rd May '12 1:28:47 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
[up][up][up]Since the planet has an official name, this should have a distinct one.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 48 johnnye, Thu, 3rd May '12 4:16:19 PM from Brighton, UK Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
[up][up]I think that sums it up pretty well.
Zaldrīzes buzdari iksos daor, so Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus.
 49 Shanghai Slave, Sat, 5th May '12 5:38:10 PM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
...

I just checked around on the related tropes brought up by some of you guys here and seems to me that it isn't just Planet Eris that's gonna need a TRS.

  • In All Myths Are True, examples feature both In-Universe myths and Real Life myths. the description itself also suggests this. (spilt this baby for clarity's sake, maybe?)

  • add in Crossover Cosmology, which is another feature common in both Planet Eris and Fantasy Kitchen Sink at the moment. the description seems to go on and on about how it works, but not how it can be applied in fiction. probably why there are very few examples in it because it's hard to understand how the trope works.

Right now, I'm extremely confused as to where to from here. anyway, here's my suggestions on how we can fix this trope.

Make Planet Eris* a Supertrope to Fantasy Kitchen Sink, Monster Mash, Crossover Cosmology. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.This brings "discord" back to the trope definition. (As in, the fact that the crossover of these completely unrelated Real Life myths/legends and fictional entities cause conflict to happen. which distinguishes it from crossovers, which only apply to fictional entities crossing over into another fictional world, to me, at least.)

OR

we go on differentiating* the tropes which in that case here's my laconic take on their definitions:

  • Planet Eris — Mundane characters and world somehow has supernatural elements. with no real reason other than it enables plot. 1 2

  • Fantasy Kitchen Sink — Explicitly supernatural characters and world. made up of a combination or Real Life myths and legends. *

  • Monster Mash — Pop culture monsters* duke it out in a mundane world. their presence in already fantastic world could be counted as under Fantasy Kitchen Sink.

  • Crossover Cosmology — gods of different religions interact with each other, despite within their own mythos there are no gods.

  • All Myths Are True — all real world myths are true In a World set explicitly on earth.

  • In Universe Myths are Always True — If there's a myth mentioned, it will always turn out to be true.

phew, all this talk about discord (and trying to decipher the trope definitions) is getting way over my head so I apologize if i misunderstood a point or two.

NINJA EDIT: minor punctuation fixes.

edited 5th May '12 5:42:21 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
 50 Septimus Heap, Sun, 6th May '12 9:48:11 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
OK, so we need a crowner here. I would start with a definition crowner tough, not a rename one.

Alternative Titles: Planet Eris 2
12th Dec '12 2:13:11 PM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
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