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Needs Help (New Name Crowner Jan 18): Spank The Cutie get usage counts

I haven't voted because my opinion is that we have three tropes here, not two.

First is Kinky Spanking, an adult Fanservice trope.
Second is Comedic Spanking, may be adult Fanservice, but is mainly intended to be funny.
Third is a form of Unfair Punishment, and is what I thought this trope was intended to be. If we don't already have such a trope, then this trope should be renamed to that.

And finally, I see a lot of people saying that examples involving children should not be allowed. While I can agree that any such usage intended as Fanservice heads too far into Squick (which means there should be no underage examples on Kinky Spanking and only non-Fanservice-ey underage examples on Comedic Spanking), underage examples should definitely be allowed on Unfair Punishment. (It won't be YMMV if examples are restricted to those where the punishment is obviously depicted as unfair in the work, or the audience is obviously supposed to see the punishment as unfair).

I have two reasons for saying we should allow some underage examples: The first is that we'll be unfairly excluding historical examples, including some of the most famous such as those in Shirley Temple films. Second, it feels to me like some people, including tropers, want to try to rewrite history and pretend that children were never unfairly spanked or subjected to other forms of corporal punishment, and I feel that TV Tropes should not be in the business of censoring history.

TV Tropes should not try to sugar-coat history by trying to hide the sins of the past, so examples of works where The Woobie is unfairly punished should have a place.

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but please read and think first.

If tropers agree with me, I'll volunteer to open an Unfair Punishment YKTTW and nurse it to launch.

edited 19th Sep '13 6:03:59 AM by Melkior

Absent-minded professor and Neverwinter Nights DM
[up] How would Unfair Punishment differ from Don't Make Me Take My Belt Off? That's a trope for harsh punishment of children with beating and the trope description makes clear that such portrayal causes Values Dissonance in today's audiences.

edited 19th Sep '13 6:48:20 AM by XFllo

 128 Septimus Heap, Thu, 19th Sep '13 6:47:34 AM from Valle di Muggio Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
Don't Make Me Take My Belt Off seems to be a general spanking trope to me.

The main difference I see is that Don't Make Me Take My Belt Off generally involves a child who has actually done something wrong, while Unfair Punishment is exclusively for what it says - punishments which are, or are depicted as, unfair in the work referenced.

I expect that there will be some examples on Don't Make Me Take My Belt Off which fit the Unfair Punishment trope.
Absent-minded professor and Neverwinter Nights DM
[up] If it shapes up, it could be a sub-trope then. However, most people in modern audience would say that all corporal punishments of kids are unfair or too harsh.

edited 24th Sep '13 5:41:55 AM by XFllo

Can we call the crowner?

 132 Willbyr, Thu, 17th Oct '13 6:14:04 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Yes; calling for Comedic Spanking.
Could I get feedback on Sandbox.Kinky Spanking? I'm not getting many responses in YKTTW and people seem to be adding examples rather than helping with sorting out those from the page.

If the description is more or less ok, we could launch it and work on Comedic Spanking.

edited 17th Oct '13 9:44:50 AM by XFllo

 134 Willbyr, Thu, 17th Oct '13 8:35:58 PM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] It's pretty good, but some of the examples are a little on the gushy side.
 135 Another Duck, Thu, 17th Oct '13 10:38:25 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Took out one remark. I think it's good.
Check out my fanfiction!
However, some people in YKTTW think that the fanservice or Male Gaze (or Female Gaze) is not obvious enough.

Another comment by Amy Gdala: You'll have to change the definition or change the examples. Because right now, it's not about spanking as fanservice. It's about kinky spanking, sexualized spanking. It turns on the characters, but it's not exploited for the audience's pleasure, and it's often not even directly portrayed at all. "Sexual" is not the same as "fanservice."

I thought that was what this TRS decided. I'm getting confused.

Link to the ykttw draft.

edited 18th Oct '13 3:00:16 AM by XFllo

 137 Septimus Heap, Fri, 18th Oct '13 3:49:21 PM from Valle di Muggio Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
Going to need some persuading that the distinction isn't just splitting hairs.

 138 Another Duck, Fri, 18th Oct '13 5:19:36 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
For this trope, I'm not sure the distinction is meaningful. Different ways of playing the trope, the way I see it.
Check out my fanfiction!
If all the examples are sexual, but just a fraction are fanservice, define it as "sexual spanking" rather than "spanking as fanservice." For example:

  • Secretary had Lee Holloway's boss, Mr. Grey, originally spanking Lee for typos. They later develop a BDSM relationship.

That's not just fanservice. That's the entire point of the film. Next comes:

  • In Monty Python and the Holy Grail, Zoot and all the other maidens of Castle Anthrax beg Galahad to spank them, trying to invoke the trope, but nope, it's too perilous.

They're invoking sexual spanking, but the only way to invoke fanservice (i.e. turning on the audience) is the break the fourth wall. Does this scene do that? Then come a couple examples that seem like they could be fanservice, and then:

  • The Killer Inside Me. It begins when the polite, seemingly normal Lou Ford is sent to encourage local prostitute Joyce Lakeland (played by Jessica Alba) to leave town. The confrontation leads to him beating her with a belt, and their romance begins. However, the beating is hard and this film is unflinchingly violent and gets even more disturbing.

So, fanservice? Fan disservice? How about we call it neither, because the point of the example is the link between corporal punishment and sex, never mind whether it's supposed to turn the audience on? Next example:

  • Project Moonbase (a 1953 film that Robert A. Heinlein co-wrote) had the bratty female astronaut (a colonel no less!) being threatened with spanking by her superior officer. It doesn't help that she's wearing tight shorts over a great ass.

Okay "tight shorts great ass, " but the scene doesn't actually contain any spanking.

There's also the small matter that we define "fanservice" and skimpy clothing/nudity, while we designated all other stuff that turns on the audience "fetish fuel" - and then we stopped cataloguing fetish fuel.

 140 Septimus Heap, Sat, 19th Oct '13 3:38:48 AM from Valle di Muggio Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
I do not think that the distinction between "fanservice" and "kinky" there is an actual difference, considering that in both cases there would be playing to the fetishes of the audience.

Sure, but we no longer catalog examples of works playing to audience's fetishes (Playing to the Fetishes, a redirect to Fetish Fuel until we stopped collecting Fetish Fuel examples). If our point is "this could play to the audience's fetishes, that's Fetish Fuel, and we don't want to note that.

But if our point is "people spank each other as sexual play, " then that's all the definition we need. Who cares whether the audience may or may not get off on it?

edited 19th Oct '13 6:08:59 AM by AmyGdala

 142 Septimus Heap, Sat, 19th Oct '13 6:10:55 AM from Valle di Muggio Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
It's the latter point.

And you are wrong on the first item; "playing to the fetishes of the audience" is what Fanservice and the related stuff is about. It's just that these are about specific things.

We have defined "fanservice" as "Gratuitous display of characters in skimpy clothing, or none at all, under the assumption that it will attract or "reward" viewers." If some audience members have a fetish fetish, and the show includes this without characters using it to attract or "reward" viewers, that alone is not fanservice. Fanservice is not a Sexy Moments page (yet).

If this page is just for examples where spanking plays to the audience's fetishes, that is quite narrow and restricts what it can cover. Characters spanking each other as part of the plot without breaking from it to turn the audience on is not fanservice. Characters discussing spanking without actually doing it is not fanservice. Characters spanking each other sexually and abusively is not fanservice.

We cannot just call these examples fanservice because any mention of spanking will turn on some viewers - that's circular.

 144 Septimus Heap, Sun, 20th Oct '13 1:18:12 AM from Valle di Muggio Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
It's not important whether the viewers are "turned on", really.

 145 nrjxll, Sun, 20th Oct '13 1:22:33 AM Relationship Status: Not war
[up]Amen to that.

Uh... so we all agree then.

Amy, why don't you write a paragraph or two to add something about the sexual or abusive spanking to extend the definition?

The article could benefit from it.

Sorry for double-post, but it feels like the discussion could get stalled again.

I'm willing to write a description for Comedic Spanking or ykttw it, but I honestly don't know what to write.

Any ideas?

 149 Septimus Heap, Fri, 27th Dec '13 11:32:17 AM from Valle di Muggio Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
Let me try to work on the main description to modify it to meet the requirements of the crowner:
Someone, usually a female, just said or did something stupid, kinky or childish, and someone else, usually male, has to correct and punish them. However, instead of doing it with words or with a Dope Slap he suddenly gives her a good, old-fashioned spanking, a comedy goldmine. Hilarity Ensues.

It's just a start, though.

[up] Ok, that'll have to do. I'll try write something a bit longer so that we can be done away with this discussion.

There are some examples in which spanking cildren or young characters is portrayed as funny. I have in mind works like some older cartoons or older comic books.

Would that be acceptable to list those as well? I think somewhere at the beginning of this discussion, it was said spanking children is strictly out of the question for Kinky Spanking. But Comedic Spanking could be acceptable? Or rather not?
Sandbox.Comedic Spanking is up. Please comment and edit...

edited 30th Jan '14 1:15:12 PM by XFllo

Alternative Titles: Comedic Spank The Cutie
10th Jul '13 11:03:54 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Previous crowner decided on a split between fanservice and comedic forms of this trope. This crowner is to choose the name for the comedic version of the trope. (Fanservice use was voted to be named as Kinky Spanking.)
Total posts: 164
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