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Unclear Description: The Hero
Deadlock Clock: 31st May '12 11:59 PM
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Unclear Description: The Hero get usage counts

 1 Marq FJA, Fri, 9th Mar '12 11:10:37 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
A recent line of discussion in the Trope Description Improvement Drive has revealed that The Hero's article has serious problems:

  1. Overly cluttered/confusing description, laconic and Playing With Wiki subpage, such that the trope's definition is not clear at all beyond occasional overlap with The Leader and/or The Protagonist (s/he can be one, both, or neither), and references to Ideal Hero (and other tropes) that fail to define the difference between the two tropes.
  2. The above is compounded with Five-Man Band's own definition of The Hero as The Leader of said ensemble (clashing with the aforementioned occasionality of its overlap with The Leader).
  3. According to shimaspawn in the aforementioned discussion, The Hero is supposed to be "the supertrope to the Ideal Hero. It's one of the highest level supertropes we have", and "A hero doesn't need a team. A hero can be out there on their own. At it's core 'A hero does what must be done to save what can be saved.'" Neither of those two concepts are apparent in the description.

Proposed solutions (not mutually exclusive):
  • Clarify The Hero's definition, and clean up and trim down the description into being the true supertrope it's meant to be without all the Five-Man Band natter in it.
  • Revise the laconic and the Playing With Wiki subpage to reflect The Hero's true definition.
  • Either replace The Hero in Five-Man Band's article with The Leader (since that is what the FMB role is supposed to be) and clean up wicks appropiately, or redefine/clarify The Hero's role in a Five-Man Band.

EDIT: Correcting incorrect letter case of shimaspawn's handle.

edited 9th Mar '12 1:15:15 PM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 2 lebrel, Fri, 9th Mar '12 11:13:03 AM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
I like all three of the bullet points.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 3 shimaspawn, Fri, 9th Mar '12 11:20:02 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
As do I, but then again, I helped write the OP.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 4 Madrugada, Fri, 9th Mar '12 12:18:22 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Well, I didn't have anything to do with the OP_, but I like all three suggestions as well.
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 5 ccoa, Fri, 9th Mar '12 12:22:39 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
You have my complete support in all three ventures. ^_^
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 6 Marq FJA, Fri, 9th Mar '12 1:41:45 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
That's good, but here is the tricky part: What is The Hero supposed to be, as a supposedly highest-level Super Trope to the various kinds of Heroes?
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
Ours is the Fury!
I completely support replacing The Hero in the Five-Man Band with The Leader.
Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.
 8 ccoa, Fri, 9th Mar '12 1:50:25 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Lemme give it a try for a laconic:

A hero is a type of protagonist that faces danger courageously for a noble cause.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 9 shimaspawn, Fri, 9th Mar '12 1:51:36 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Protagonist isn't required for a hero. Archetype might be a better fit there.

Villian Protagonist, all those tropes about having a character that's a secondary character as a protagonist instead of The Hero, it's not the right fit.

edited 9th Mar '12 1:53:19 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 10 ccoa, Fri, 9th Mar '12 1:52:24 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Okay, how about:

A hero is a character archetype that faces danger courageously for a noble cause.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 11 lebrel, Fri, 9th Mar '12 1:52:42 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
There's lots of ways of marking the hero, since there's several things the hero can be doing:

edited 9th Mar '12 2:07:22 PM by lebrel

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 12 Madrugada, Fri, 9th Mar '12 2:00:39 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I think Lebrel nailed it. We have at least a couple of different ways the word "hero" is used here.

  • A character/personality type: "character archetype that faces danger courageously for a noble cause." A character who acts in a heroic manner.

  • The main character of the story, whether he's heroic by the first definition or not; as in <X is the hero of the story>.

Those are the two very top-level definitions, I'd say. Most other uses can be slotted in under one or the other.

In the case of Five-Man Band, I think we intended it to be used in the second sense, going on the assumption that the leader of the band is usually also the main character. I think that assumption is deeply flawed.
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 13 Marq FJA, Fri, 9th Mar '12 2:02:33 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
[up][up]The first one is exactly how The Protagonist is defined, though. See its article and laconic.

edited 9th Mar '12 2:03:50 PM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 14 lebrel, Fri, 9th Mar '12 2:07:06 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] You are correct. I misused protagonist. And apparently we don't have an article for "POV character". Bah.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 15 Madrugada, Fri, 9th Mar '12 2:41:32 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
^^ Yes, it is, but we're using "hero" in that sense. More importantly, it's very commonly used in that sense outside the wiki. And it's a part of the cause of the confusion.

edited 9th Mar '12 2:42:01 PM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 16 shimaspawn, Fri, 9th Mar '12 2:49:20 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Perhaps we need to define it as the other definition but specifically point people looking for the Protagonist to The Protagonist.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 17 Marq FJA, Fri, 9th Mar '12 3:05:05 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
[up][up] I was pointing out how lebrel was apparently under the impression that The Protagonist was something else than his first definition.

[up] That would be fine by me. The Hero's article already notes that it's not synonymous with The Protagonist, anyway.

edited 9th Mar '12 3:05:55 PM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 18 Ekuran, Fri, 9th Mar '12 3:29:47 PM from somewhere. Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Hi.
I think it's "A character who acts in a heroic manner, with a very large Internal Subtrope where such a character is also the main character. Another Internal Subtrope (to a somewhat milder extent) has them be The Leader of the good guys."

edited 9th Mar '12 3:32:54 PM by Ekuran

[Insert seemingly profound or amusing phrase here.]
 19 Marq FJA, Fri, 9th Mar '12 3:41:04 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
[up]The first Internal Subtrope would be Hero Protagonist, I think.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 20 ccoa, Fri, 9th Mar '12 4:23:03 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Defining a hero as someone who acts heroic is rather a circular definition, since heroic is defined as "having the characteristics of a hero".
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 21 shimaspawn, Fri, 9th Mar '12 4:53:55 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Fortunately the wiki regularly defines things by their names so we are immune to circular logic.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
The Hero as a trope should mean exactly what the word means in English.

 23 shimaspawn, Fri, 9th Mar '12 6:14:14 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up] Media tropes almost never are what the dictionary definitions say. The dictionary is a terrible place to see how people actually use words in the wild.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
[up][up]I don't like that definition.

The way I see people using it on this wiki, The Hero doesn't have to be brave, or noble, or even heroic.

Isn't The Hero basically "the character who's purpose in the story is to try to solve the conflict"?

edited 9th Mar '12 6:30:14 PM by abk0100

 25 Madrugada, Fri, 9th Mar '12 9:40:23 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I'm going to quibble. I think the common usage is pretty evenly divided between the two meanings. The difference in common usage between "the main character" and "a noble person who behaves in a heroic manner" can be encapsulated in which article is used with it. Generally if it's being used in the first sense, he's "the hero". In the second he's "a hero".

edited 9th Mar '12 9:40:57 PM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!

Page Action: The Hero
29th May '12 12:19:49 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Total posts: 81
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