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What is a role-playing game? How can you define it?:

 176 Tarsen, Tue, 6th Mar '12 2:17:57 AM from FC: 2165-5763-7629 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
A little dry.
its gameplay that matters in the long run. A game with a shit narrative but awesome gameplay and mechanics is still a good game,

my intense hatred of tales of the abyss tells me otherwise

also, whoever said games shouldnt have level grinding (if that is what they said, i cant remember, and id have to go the previous pages to check, so im just throwing this out there) you monster.

without the grinding, nocturne is like, 80 hours shorter D:
Pro Tip: Spiders are not technically insects, but actually skeletons made of congealed hate.
A bad story isn't a problem if it can be ignored, like in a Diablo-esque game where it doesn't come up much, and you're spending most of your time actually playing. But if it's something like a 70+ hour JRPG with long unskippable cutscenes and lots of dialogue, having a bad story can hurt the experience a lot more, even if the gameplay itself is fun.

Re: Nocturne. It doesn't have that much grinding, does it? Most of the leveling up is done when you're moving to the next objective, and when you're gathering the correct demons for a boss fight. If you're dying, more often than not it's because you need better demons, not because you're underleveled.

edited 6th Mar '12 2:26:29 AM by Talby

 178 Madass Alex, Tue, 6th Mar '12 2:26:43 AM from the Middle Ages.
I am vexed!
Would you say that Mario is such a franchise that does the stuff you described? What about Pac-Man? Mega Man? Devil May Cry?

Absolutely. Each has limited gameplay options based on overcoming the specific types of obstacles the game provides.

Mario is about bypassing obstacles, which is why its gameplay is based on Mario's agility.

Pac-Man is about avoiding ghosts in a maze, which is why the only gameplay mechanic is movement.

Mega-Man is about empowering the player avatar, which is why it's a combat game that consistently provides powerups.

Devil May Cry is about style, which is why it's a combat game that rewards a consistently strong performance.

You'll note that none of these games use anything that falls outside their mechanical theme. Every item in Mario is designed to help bypass obstacles; Pac-Man only has movement controls; Mega-Man's upgrades are permanent; Devil May Cry makes style its most practical option.

These games choose themes, even if they're not immediately evident, and sticks with them. And it's often game elements that lie outside these themes that get most heavily criticised by players. Ever played a game where a mechanic felt tacked on? It was probably because the mechanic "didn't fit". It didn't run with the theme the game had already applied and therefore detracted from the overall experience.

A great example of a unified game experience is Pokemon. Everything relates to battling, raising or capturing Pokemon. That's the theme. All items have combat application, buff application or are used to capture Pokemon. Additional features, like the day care, are all based around raising existing Pokemon or acquiring new Pokemon. The world of Pokemon obviously has "regular" jobs and elements, but what good would come out of making a game about them? Only a Pokemon trainer gets to experience all these different aspects with such freedom. Even if the idea of a Pokemon SWAT team is kind of cool, something would fall by the wayside. That's why every main Pokemon game places us in the shoes of a trainer.

Note that "story" and "narrative" are different. Narrative describes the means of expression. If you compare two combat animations between two different characters, one being sloppy and one being measured, that's narrative. The game is narrating itself by giving an indication of skill between two combatants. That's why narrative and mechanics have to work together. If they don't, then the medium is not expressing itself with its best tools and will rely on text, dialogue or standard cinema techniques to express its information rather than taking advantage of its format.

If you want a more entertaining explanation of the concepts I've discussed here, I suggest watching this:

edited 6th Mar '12 2:28:16 AM by MadassAlex

 179 Tarsen, Tue, 6th Mar '12 2:28:34 AM from FC: 2165-5763-7629 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
A little dry.
eh, most of the leveling is indeed on the way there, i suppose. and yes its mostly for the demons.

but with particular parts of the game, you find yourself hanging around and grinding. since this is actually the point of the kalpas, it happens a lot there after you're fully explored each place, theres also near the end of the game where you need to unlock the pierce ability to beat the true final boss, but its lvl90 skill iirc, and you'll probably be around the 70s or 80s at that point, so there can be quite a bit of grinding. even more if, for some inexplicable reason you want to master all the magatamas, which would take you well past lvl99. the first time you'll ever need to grind would be near matador, where you're about lvl15, and you cant get fog breath untill lvl21.

(the 80 hours thing was just a joke btw)

edited 6th Mar '12 2:30:26 AM by Tarsen

Pro Tip: Spiders are not technically insects, but actually skeletons made of congealed hate.
 180 Tam H 70, Tue, 6th Mar '12 2:35:27 AM from 合計虐殺 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War ALWAYS changes. Man does not.
@talby, I will post if I feel like it. It is a free country, after all. What gives you the right to tell me not to? Are you a mod? And I find your use of the word assertion disturbing if you feel like I am the only one using them when you are blind, in my view to your own use of them. Since you seem to have no argument other than a blind adherence to the opinions of others who share your views because they suit your (in my view) narrow opinions. Note, I said, "seem to have" rather than flat out say you have. Politeness.

Which is an example of what facepalm videos are not. Ya know, just for future reference. I have never used one in any of the posts I have made to this wiki even in response to things that I find damned near inexcusable. It is not an argument, it is a personal attack.

So, let us for the sake of argument, tell me why Football Manager is not an rpg, even though it has far more stats than Skyrim and those stats are far more prominently displayed? Where there is clear skills progression from the novice gamer to those who end up so good at the game one wonders why they don't get the Chelsea job? Where a player has to juggle career and skills progression for a full squad of twenty two players and subs rather than the frankly laughable (in the view of folks like my bruv who plays Football Manager and its predecessor, Championship Manager and loves it)"rpg" party of usually no more than five?

The only jrpg that I have played that matches or beats that above mentioned number is Final Fantasy Tactics. Its squad roster is big. It is hobbled only by having two stats that judge whether or not the party member stays in your team, "Brave" and "Faith" unlike in the FM games where there is far more going on, including how pissy your player's agent is being towards his presence in your club, and not just how often the guy plays, or how much his bonus for scoring goals and winning matches is.

edited 6th Mar '12 2:37:33 AM by TamH70

 181 Ramus, Tue, 6th Mar '12 2:37:15 AM from some computer somwhere.
Lead.
[up][up]Yeah, Shin Megami Tensei is kind of known for its grinding at times. Particular infamous is Demifiend himself when he shows up as a bonus boss in Digital Devil Saga, the fucker.

Generally though, if it isn't bonus stuff and you play strategically, you usually don't have to grind.

[up]Dude, the passive aggressive shtick isn't really helping.

edited 6th Mar '12 2:38:02 AM by Ramus

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.
 182 Tam H 70, Tue, 6th Mar '12 2:51:16 AM from 合計虐殺 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War ALWAYS changes. Man does not.
[up]Dude, don't call me dude. And I am being neither passive nor aggressive. I have no emotional input into this argument at all. Just stating my views, which I already have said are my views. I could say I give less of a damn about what you just said but since you wouldn't believe me I don't see what the point is.

You don't like what I say? Fair enough. I am too tired to care. Happy?
[up][up][up]I just don't see the point in posting if you're not going to stand by it by participating in the discussion. It's up to you if you want to post or not, obviously.

But you're right, the video was rather pointless and possibly insulting, so I'm sorry about that. I should've just posted the argument from my later post and not gotten snarky.

I haven't played Football Manager so I can't say anything about any RPG elements it might have. I'm not really familiar with the sports management sim genre at all. Based on your description it might barely count as a strategy RPG, but I couldn't say for sure without playing it.

edited 6th Mar '12 2:55:52 AM by Talby

 184 Tam H 70, Tue, 6th Mar '12 3:15:23 AM from 合計虐殺 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War ALWAYS changes. Man does not.
[up]Then you and me DO have something in common. I haven't played Football Manager, but I have a brother who does. I used to attack him for playing something that looked to me more like an Excel spreadsheet or an Access database until I did a bit more digging into it and the folks who play it. To win at the game takes as much effort, or more, as it does to beat Ruby Weapon in FFVII or get the Independent "Wild Card" ending in New Vegas. And a lot of the players are as obsessive about the game and its rivalry with the new Championship Manager game series published by Eidos, which they only set up when the original developers walked away from their deal, as any other fan of the "jrpg"/"wrpg" genres are in their fights about whose game is best.

To say I see both of those battles are pointless would be seriously understating the case. A game is a game as far as I am concerned. You either want to play it or not and sticking genre labels on them is in my view a bit odd. I can appreciate that I am in a minority over that.

I still think I would rather watch paint dry than play more than half a demo season of Football Manager, though. My bruv feels the same way about my love of what some people, and not me anymore, call jrpgs like Brave Fencer Musashi or Vagrant Story, both of which he saw me playing at the time they came out and what he sees as equally watching-paint-dry inducing.

I accept your apology.
[up] Thanks. If I ever act jerk-ish enough, it's probably not on purpose, so just call me on it and I'll probably come to my senses.tongue

Okay, I can understand your point a bit better now. I do think there's value in defining genres for games, like there is with anything. If I'm looking for a particular kind of game, I know where to look in the game store. If I'm describing a game to someone, I can tell them "it's an RPG" so they have a basic idea of what kind of game it is, and then go into more detail. Labeling and categorizing things is part of how humans understand and make sense of the world, and game genres are no different.

But yeah, you're right about one thing - playing Football Manager does sound about as interesting as watching paint dry.

edited 6th Mar '12 3:31:29 AM by Talby

 186 Tam H 70, Tue, 6th Mar '12 3:39:22 AM from 合計虐殺 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War ALWAYS changes. Man does not.
Well, I have a confession to make. I am a bit odd. On buying a game in a shop, I look at the pictures on the game boxes. If it makes me go, oh, look, that is interesting, then it may be worth a punt. If it has a good blurb and shows some slides of ingame footage then that is a bonus.

If on the other hand I come across a trailer and go, yeah, I will jump on that like white on bread, because it looks so good, I don't need a pretty picture. Which is the reason why I bought Final Fantasy VII. I kept playing it because of the moment when Cloud isn't from SOLDIER, just kidding, where Aeris is killed by Sephiroth - that rat bastard doesn't get to put five feet of oversized katana through one of my party members and get away with it

My policy has let me down twice. Once for Tomb Raider, and again for Halo: ODST both of which I bought and sold because I couldn't get into them.
Someone in here knocking Football Manager?

I took York City from the English Conference to winning the Champions League in that game. I've spent more hours crafting the perfect tactics for nonexistent regens in 2033 then I have musing over the fate of the rachni, or...*considers his Steam playtime then adds playtime from non-Steam days* anything just about...
"You want to see how a human dies? At ramming speed." - Emily Wong.
The system doesn't know you right now, so no post button for you.
You need to Get Known to get one of those.
Total posts: 187
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