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Total posts: [125]  1  2  3  4
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Rename (alt titles 7/31): Deus Ex Nukina get usage counts

 101 Septimus Heap, Tue, 31st Jul '12 3:22:48 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
My knowledge of Lating says resoundingly "no" to Nuke Ex Machina. Plus, these names sound rather close to Nuclear Option and Nuke 'em.

Plus, we started a definition fixing thread. I dunno why everything here revolves around renaming. I am not agreeing on a rename just because.

 102 Spark 9, Tue, 31st Jul '12 3:33:20 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] Wait, so what does your knowledge of Latin think of the current name, then?

Special trousers. Very heroic.
 103 Septimus Heap, Tue, 31st Jul '12 3:37:38 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Well...
  • It's a snowclone of Deus ex Machina.
  • It says "God out of a nuke" (it's neologism as an ablativenote : ex calls for an ablative)

If you read "God" as "Solution" (which is what it is in Deus ex Machina) it fits, language-wise.

 104 Xtifr, Tue, 31st Jul '12 5:24:57 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
[up]Your knowledge of Latin, and in particular, of the meaning of Deus Ex Machina, seems sadly flawed. The derivation refers to actual gods appearing in a work, hoisted in on cranes (the "machina") to resolve things. Here, we're substituting Nukes for Gods, not the crane. The crane was just the mechanism whereby the gods were shoveled in, and "god as device" is probably the translation that most accurately matches the modern sense of the term.

Thus, Nuke Ex Machina at least makes sense, while Deus Ex Nukina is just silly and confusing.

eta: Here's what The Other Wiki has to say on Deus ex machina.

edited 31st Jul '12 5:28:39 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
 105 Septimus Heap, Wed, 1st Aug '12 1:49:49 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Just so we are clear, I do know Latin and I've read The Other Wiki. But I am talking about the current name and you about the description.

Well, from this it seems that Nuke Ex Machina is a viable candidate. However, more clear trope names need to point out the difference from Nuke 'em and Nuclear Option since this was the original problem.

 106 ccoa, Wed, 1st Aug '12 7:50:58 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Is there a valid argument for renaming other than not liking the name? The snowclone works in this case (now), since it is a subtrope of Deus ex Machina.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 107 Septimus Heap, Wed, 1st Aug '12 8:04:39 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Not really, which is why I downvoted it. Unless someone can come up with more objective evidence, that is.

 108 Spark 9, Wed, 1st Aug '12 10:29:02 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Everything's Worse With Snowclones is an argument. It's surely not an argument that everyone agrees with, but it strikes me as a valid reason to crowner.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 109 Septimus Heap, Wed, 1st Aug '12 10:53:41 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
It's not as simple as snowclone=bad. There are problems that come from snowcloning - are there any showing up here?

 110 Spark 9, Wed, 1st Aug '12 10:55:18 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Yes, or we wouldn't just have had a five-page discussion on the subject.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 111 Septimus Heap, Wed, 1st Aug '12 11:12:26 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Not all of this discussion was on renaming. Any other arguments? "It's a snowclone, bitch!" is a weak reason by itself.

 112 Spark 9, Wed, 1st Aug '12 11:20:09 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Please don't use language like that, it doesn't help the discussion any.

Let's just agree to disagree and see how the crowner turns out.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 113 Septimus Heap, Wed, 1st Aug '12 11:25:23 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I was using a methaphor. Otherwise, agree. Peace?

Is there any underuse?

 114 Xtifr, Wed, 1st Aug '12 2:35:13 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Since we basically just completely redefined this, it's hard to say anything about use. It previously meant a hand-carried nuke!

Given that we're redefining it, I see no problem with giving it a clearer name. And "Nukina" is needlessly obscure, IMO. It might make you think about nukes, but it also might make you think of soft drinks.

Eta: I think we made a mistake redefining the trope to match the name, rather than changing the name to match the trope, but what's done is done. At this point, I think we're basically launching a new trope, which should mean the name is up-for-grabs. Yes, you could say that since we redefined the trope to match the name, then the name should carry some weight, but it's still a new trope, and we can still do much better. Nuke Ex Machina at least looks three-quarters literate, as opposed to the current name, which is half-literate at best. And we have ample precedent for renaming tropes purely based on the fact that their names are abuses of foreign languages, like Nakama and Dead ex Machina.

eta x2: it's also the only snowclone of Deus ex Machina we have that doesn't properly replace the "deus" part. Even if you're ok with the grotesque language-mangling, some consistency would be nice.

edited 1st Aug '12 2:53:19 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Bump
 
"The name Deus Ex Nukina does not indicate how this trope differs from e.g. Nuke Em and Nuclear Option. Furthermore, it's a Snow Clone, and not all tropers or readers know enough Latin to understand it. Rename it?"

Is it good to have a one-sided argument in a crowner? I'd rather have it be simply: "Rename Deux Ex Nukina, up for yes, down for no." Or something like that... Or at least put some arguments against the rename too.

edited 24th Aug '12 10:52:21 PM by Nasst

In a quest to erase natter from the face of earth.
 117 Septimus Heap, Sat, 25th Aug '12 1:57:21 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I edited the crowner for the proper formatting. I also took out the "difference between Nuke 'em and Nuclear Option" bit as I can't recall it being mentioned anywhere in the thread.

I'll see if I can find cons here.

What about

Con: Snowclones are not necessarily bad, and you don't need to understand latin to get the title, Pop Culture is enough.
In a quest to erase natter from the face of earth.
 119 Septimus Heap, Sat, 25th Aug '12 2:06:15 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Added it, but with pun instead of popculture as it's "nukina" = nuke.

 120 Spark 9, Sat, 25th Aug '12 12:21:15 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
...so the "con" is basically "yes, we admit that the pro arguments exist, we just don't care about them". There's no real "con" argument, just a denial of the "pro". It's too late to change now, but this doesn't look like an objective crowner.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
[up] If there's no argument for a change, (or the arguments for a change are invalid) there should be no change.
In a quest to erase natter from the face of earth.
 122 Septimus Heap, Sat, 25th Aug '12 12:48:47 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
"The pun is enough" seems to be a clear argument to me.

And this reminds me why crowner pros/cons are frowned upon...

To me, the pro/con sounds like con/counterpoint. Might want to redo that crowner completely.
 
 124 ccoa, Thu, 30th Aug '12 7:30:50 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
The con hasn't been on there long enough to effect the outcome. On the other hand, the pro was placed there a month ago, and was full of unsupported opinions. But since it didn't manage to sway this towards the pro side, it seems silly to redo this.

Both of them are not really good support for the argument, since both rely on unsupported arguments. I'll remove them.

It's pretty obvious that we're not going to get support for a rename here.

edited 30th Aug '12 9:02:36 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 125 lu 127, Tue, 2nd Oct '12 11:53:00 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
With Mod Hat On
Calling crowner. No consensus to rename.

Locking.
小さく揺れた向日葵
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Single Proposition: Deus Ex Nukina
31st Jul '12 4:33:09 AM
Vote up for yes, down for no.
At issue:
Total posts: 125
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