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Misused (YKTTW name crowner): Heroes Prefer Swords get usage counts

 151 Troacctid, Tue, 19th Jun '12 8:36:26 PM from California
Can I just say, I think "Heroes Prefer Swords" is much better as a name than "Swords Are Heroic" for that trope.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 152 lu 127, Wed, 20th Jun '12 12:01:07 PM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I agree, actually.
小さく揺れた向日葵
 153 ccoa, Wed, 20th Jun '12 12:07:30 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Swords Are Heroic was not meant to replace Heroes Prefer Swords, it was meant to split off one of the reasons heroes might perfer swords while leaving Heroes Prefer Swords as the Weapon of Choice supertrope. We discussed other splits, too, but no one would agree on them other than that one.

edited 20th Jun '12 12:07:43 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 154 lu 127, Wed, 20th Jun '12 12:10:04 PM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I'm a bit confused as to how the split will take place at this point. Can I get a comprehensive list?

edited 20th Jun '12 12:10:12 PM by lu127

小さく揺れた向日葵
 155 ccoa, Wed, 20th Jun '12 12:12:45 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
I honestly don't remember any more. It's been months. I'm pretty sure the only one that managed to get off the ground was Swords Are Heroic, though.

edited 20th Jun '12 12:13:05 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 156 lu 127, Wed, 20th Jun '12 12:32:05 PM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
The YKTTW is confusing me. Is it about heroes using swords in medieval fiction even though historically spears were more common, or is it about how swords are connected to chivalry and nobility? There's quite a bit of historical trivia in it....

And it was said at some point we should ditch Heroes Prefer Swords as it's currently defined, and maybe use it as a name for a new trope.

There was also talk of doing Anachronistic Weapon User, for characters who live in The Future but for some reason, use swords.
小さく揺れた向日葵
 157 ccoa, Wed, 20th Jun '12 12:35:04 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
No Such Thing As A Deprecated Weapon is in YKTTW, but it isn't a direct subtrope and it still has a sponsor (me).

There was also talk of Swords Are Balanced, but it seemed too narrow and the trope really ought to be how common weapons are portrayed in video games, but I couldn't get enough feedback on the idea to make a YKTTW of it.

EDIT: Regarding the Swords Are Heroic, it's supposed to be about how swords are perceived to be a more heroic weapon (due to their connection to knights and chivalry), and that is why a disproportionate number of heroic characters have them, even when it's not really all that accurate.

The rest of the fluff should be in analysis.

edited 20th Jun '12 12:39:03 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 158 Troacctid, Wed, 20th Jun '12 11:57:07 PM from California
Yeah, I mean that Heroes Prefer Swords is a better name for the "Swords Are Heroic" trope than Swords Are Heroic. And it's not really close, TBH.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 159 lu 127, Wed, 27th Jun '12 9:44:29 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Agree.

I wonder, most of Final Fantasy would be an example for the YKTTW, correct? Some would overlap with ccoa's project as well.

(Asking cause I want to finally get it moving)
小さく揺れた向日葵
 160 ccoa, Wed, 27th Jun '12 9:49:34 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Yes, almost all the FF games would provide examples. Off the top of my head, IV, VI, VII, VIII, X, XIII, and XIII-2 give swords to the heroes and/or most heroic characters.

One thing we discussed but never came to a consensus on is why the rival/primary antagonist of the hero is almost always given a sword. I believe it's because:

  1. Sword vs. sword fights are "cool" and easier to choreograph than sword vs. other melee weapon or, worse, sword vs. missile weapon.
  2. Giving the rival the sword heightens the parallels between the hero and his main rival/antagonist. It also represents a subversion of the "heroic sword" trope, which has already been established in the audience's mind by the hero having a sword.

Is this concept defined enough to be a trope?
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 161 Troacctid, Wed, 27th Jun '12 10:49:19 AM from California
Seems expected that a Foil will have parallels with the character they're foiling.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 162 lu 127, Thu, 28th Jun '12 8:00:38 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Alright, the YKTTW has started moving again.

There's a proposed modification to the description in the last comment. Y/N?
小さく揺れた向日葵
 163 ccoa, Thu, 28th Jun '12 8:15:04 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Looks good to me.

Man, I wish I could get comments half that good on my YKTT Ws.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 164 lu 127, Thu, 28th Jun '12 8:19:23 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
...We need a YKTTW medal. wink
小さく揺れた向日葵
 165 shimaspawn, Thu, 28th Jun '12 8:34:12 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up] I'll get on that.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Wait, so the idea is that we're going to have 2 tropes, one called Heroes Prefer Swords and one called Swords Are Heroic? How would that work?

edited 28th Jun '12 9:38:12 AM by abk0100

 167 lu 127, Thu, 28th Jun '12 1:04:01 PM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
[up][up] That was cool. cool

[up] Eh? From what I get we're scrapping Heroes Prefer Swords in all but name. I left the YKTTW as Swords Are Heroic because the first thing people in YKTTW will tell you when they see a draft with an existing name is "WE ALREADY HAVE THAT UNDER THAT NAME".
小さく揺れた向日葵
Is that the plan? I've found this whole thread pretty confusing.

In that case, I guess the YKTTW looks okay. If everyone agrees on keeping the Heroes Prefer Swords name, let's put a note at the top saying that's what it will be launched as.

@ccoa @lu 127 @shimaspawn: Thank you!

I've added some more thoughts in the YKTTW about why I prefer Swords Are Heroic, but I think the main cause becomes clear once you inverse the tropes:

Inverting Heroes Prefer Swords is just a hero that uses something else than a sword. To me, that makes it come close to People Sit on Chairs. You have to include lots of stuff why it is that Heroes Prefer Swords, and that adds confusion (as shown in the current trope).

Swords Are Heroic gives a clear answer to that question. The inverse of the trope becomes a character who has a sword but isn't heroic. Ie, now the trope says something about the characters who uses it.

Heroes Prefer Swords is about a list. Swords Are Heroic is about drama. Both are tropes, but one is to me much more interesting than the other.

Hmmm... I should add this to the YKTTW as well.

I think everyone agrees that the trope should be what you're describing as Swords Are Heroic but that doesn't mean that has to be the name. Heroes Prefer Swords is just a slightly cheeky way of describing the same trope.

But if there's disagreement over which name is better, I guess we need a crowner.

edited 28th Jun '12 5:17:15 PM by abk0100

Heroes Prefer Swords has a ring to it, and it will probably attract more use, but I think kjnoren has a point about Swords Are Heroic. It has a meaning. Heroes Prefer Swords will attract examples of heroes using swords - which may be because the swords connote heroism, or they may be because of anything else. And the name simply begs for irrelevant aversions and inversions.

 172 lu 127, Fri, 29th Jun '12 9:34:24 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I like Heroes Prefer Swords better.

Crowner time?
小さく揺れた向日葵
 173 ccoa, Fri, 29th Jun '12 9:42:13 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Yeah. I think Heroes Prefer Swords is indeed catchier, but Swords Are Heroic is clearer and may help stem the misuse all the Weapon of Choice tropes are prone to.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
some votes please?

Better to call for votes in the YKTTW thread, I think. I think the trope could use quite a bit more examples, too.

Alternative Titles: Deprecated Weapon YKTTW
21st Jun '12 9:21:06 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:

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