TV Tropes Org

Forums

search forum titles
google site search
Total posts: [229]  1  2
3
 4  5  6  7  8 ... 10

Misused (YKTTW name crowner): Heroes Prefer Swords get usage counts

I think he trope isn't about the inaccuracy of using a sword. It's just about swords being used to signify heroism, either by a writer or by an actual person.

edited 2nd Mar '12 6:50:10 PM by abk0100

Cure Candy
I don't think we need that one at all IMO the trope is fine as is Heroes Prefer Swords, creating the Swords in a futuristic setting is fine also a Swords Are Balanced, Ceremonial Sword, or Standard Fantasy Weapons tropes could work too.

This is an aggregate trope that Video Game heroes and/or PC (mostly RPG) use swords (or start with a sword but other weapons are available depending on players choice.) no matter the setting futuristic, modern, fantasy etc while others get more varried or creative weapons like spears or balls on a stick.

edited 2nd Mar '12 7:01:46 PM by Raso

The only problem I still see with the page is the way examples are listed.

I don't see the point of listing all these examples of "this character is a hero but they use a gun or something." So what? The trope shouldn't be "heroes always use a sword, " it should be "swords are used as a tool by writers as a shorthand for heroism." The fact that so-and-so uses guns and happens to be the protagonist has no relevance.

Anyway else support axing most of the aversions, and just having a normal example list?

Cure Candy
[up] I could go for that.
Yeah, having a ton of aversions listed really isn't necessary, especially since this is not an omnipresent trope in all genres. In The Western, for example, Revolvers Are Just Better.

Not An Avatar
I think the heroic aspect isn't the important one. The main character, especially in fantasy fiction and video games, often uses a sword, while other characters are less likely to. It's not necessarily because they're "heroic"; there are other considerations in mind.

I don't think whether the sword is an anachronism can be the main qualifier of the trope either, since the act of using a sword can communicate something whether it's the appropriate level of technology or not.
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
Concerning the arch-nemesis using swords, he can be considered a hero for his side. Very often, swords are used to show leadership, and not soley the hero of the story.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
 58 Martello, Sat, 3rd Mar '12 3:29:59 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
We need a separate trope for anachronistic use of swords and this one. Not the same thing at all.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Not An Avatar
[up] We have one in YKTTW. Anachronistic Swordsman. It hasn't been touched since January, though.
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
 60 ccoa, Sat, 3rd Mar '12 4:29:10 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
I think I'll YKTTW the supertrope, Deprecated Weapon User or something. If that one launches, we'll have two subtropes and no supertrope.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
We already have Deprecated Weapon User. It's The John Henry.

 62 ccoa, Mon, 5th Mar '12 7:18:34 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Not exactly (and what a terrible name). That trope is when a character uses a low-tech solution in a setting where higher tech is available and must defeat those with higher technology.

Perhaps that trope should be expanded, but as it stands now, it doesn't cover all instances and is simultaneously broader (all tools as opposed to weapons) and narrower (must defeat higher tech).

EDIT: Not to mention that that trope is apparently on the table to be cut or merged.

edited 5th Mar '12 7:21:47 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 63 Tera Chimera, Mon, 5th Mar '12 7:24:04 AM from hell if I know
Cool Celtic Composition
[up] Also not to mention that the suggested Anachronistic Weapon User is about weapons specifically, whereas The John Henry is more vague.

EDIT: Wait, you already said that. Well, it bears repeating.

edited 5th Mar '12 7:25:17 AM by TeraChimera

Non sequiturs are like bicycles: they don't bathe or poach.
 64 ccoa, Mon, 5th Mar '12 7:39:31 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
As The Grand List of Console Role Playing Game Clichés #19 references, generally both the hero and his Arch-Nemesis use swords, so they can have a climactic Sword Fight. That weakens the case for Swords Are Heroic right away.

It is possible for something to have more than one symbolic meaning. That's why Bald of Evil and Bald of Awesome can both exist.

I'd say the heroic sword is definitely a trope. The hero brandishing a sword (rearing horse optional) is very much a part of our culture.

On the other hand, sword fights are usually considered more dramatic and exciting than most other weapon duels, which would mean that it's possible two characters are given swords for only the purpose of having them fight it out on camera.

Alternately, the main character is generally the Jack of All Stats, and swords are the Mario of weapons.

Um, what? According to who? Which swords? In what media?

Using a sword can evoke a Knight in Shining Armor, but it can also mean the opposite. While spears, bows, axes, hammers, knives, et cetera can be used as tools, swords are purely weapons, and can represent a character trained for war.

Maaaybeee. But neither a bow nor a spear is a tool, both are weapons. Axes used as tools are a very different animal than axes used as a weapon, and even a layman can tell the difference. A mace is another weapon-only weapon. I'm not sure I buy this.

Using a sword represents Good Old Ways. This falls under Elegant Weapon for a More Civilized Age.

This, I would buy. However, I would tie that into swords being heroic, because there is the impression that combat has become impersonal and it is somehow more honorable and heroic to face your foe with a sword in hand rather than a gun.

I don't think whether the sword is an anachronism can be the main qualifier of the trope either, since the act of using a sword can communicate something whether it's the appropriate level of technology or not.

I think this is the general consensus so far, yes.

I think we can at least agree that the sword is heavily laden with symbolism and cultural weight, moreso than most other weapons.

edited 5th Mar '12 7:41:44 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Cure Candy
[up] Most RP Gs the Hero ends up Jack of All Stats or Jack-of-All-Trades dipping into everything available and balanced stats usually because there is solo portions of the game (sometimes letting you build the character's stats.) They will get a healing spell, damage spell, strike with a melee attack for ok damage and can take a hit. (Sometimes they will only learn low level healing spells and such when you do not have a full party when at the appropriate levels for a full party they stop learning them and specialize.)

Games that let you chose weapons 1 handed Swords (or sometimes light swords but get wielded with 2 hands) tend to be in the middle ground, they are not fast like a dagger or hit as hard like a big mace or a greatsword but they allow access to a shield for additional armor and block chance.

Dragon Quest is really good on this (The Hero will generally get Sword, Spear and Boomerangs for weapon choices, sword skills and stats are the most balanced and they will start out with one.) so is Final Fantasy Hell JRP Gs in general.

Hell Final Fantasy XIII-2 Word of God they gave Sarah a sword because of this trope but to preserve her femineity they made that sword transform into a bow too to stay in the standard Staff Chick weapon range (Magic Staff, Bow or exotic ranged weapon.)

edited 5th Mar '12 8:29:06 AM by Raso

 66 Martello, Mon, 5th Mar '12 9:21:21 AM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
The hammers that Europeans actually used in war cannot be used as tools. The stupid RPG image of a warrior wielding a g'damn sledgehammer is just that, a stupid fictional misconception. Warhammers have a pronounced beak on one side for armor piercing, and either a flat hammer for crushing helmets or a set of blunt claws for much the same purpose on the other side. The heads were rather small, not much bigger than a standard large framing hammer. Horsemen used short-hafted versions. There were also pole versions for infantry that were quite popular, especially with my people when we still fought like that instead of using ropes, guns, and severed horse heads on bedsheets.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
 67 Dragon Quest Z, Mon, 5th Mar '12 9:49:57 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
[up]BTW, if that info isn't on Drop the Hammer, it should be (but just a few lines, like what you wrote).
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 68 ccoa, Mon, 5th Mar '12 9:55:44 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Games that let you chose weapons 1 handed Swords (or sometimes light swords but get wielded with 2 hands) tend to be in the middle ground, they are not fast like a dagger or hit as hard like a big mace or a greatsword but they allow access to a shield for additional armor and block chance.

Which would actually make swords both the middle ground and the slow but heavy hitting category, would it not?

Hell JRP Gs in general.

The general consensus is not to keep this medium-specific, though, even assuming this is true (I can think of many examples where it is not).
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 69 Martello, Mon, 5th Mar '12 10:00:24 AM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
[up][up]I just added it in.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Not An Avatar
I'm talking in terms of what the weapons represent. All the weapons I mentioned have a non-military use (bows and spears are used in hunting, ccoa). I'm not making that idea up; I've seen it in referenced in works like The Wheel of Time (the Aiel oath to not use a sword) and Discworld (the dwarves carry axes as part of traditionally dwarven culture, but have shown discomfort with swords). Go back to The Bible: you have to "beat your swords into plowshares"*, because swords have no other use but war. A sword is associated with a professional warrior, or a noble who has never had cause to use other weapons.

The point is that the reason the hero wields a sword isn't directly because "swords = hero"; it's carried over from other associations. Swords do have a lot of different meanings, and they show up disproportionately among lead protagonists. Making the trope exclusive requiring "sword is shorthand for heroism" is iffy. There might be a supertrope/subtrope issue here, but if so, the supertrope shouldn't be vague and offer multiple subtrope options instead of stating something on its own, because we need a clear sword trope to compare to other Weapon of Choice tropes.
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
 71 ccoa, Mon, 5th Mar '12 11:12:56 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Uh... using a weapon in hunting is use as a weapon. And a hunting sword is very much a thing.

I think what you're trying to say is that swords have no other use but to kill people. That might be believed to be true, but, as I linked earlier, it's not.

However, since we're about documenting perceptions rather than reality, at least as much as those perceptions influence fiction, then (as I've already said), we should document the different symbolisms swords have rather than rule one out because it isn't always the case. It's not mutually exclusive, we can have both a Swords Are Heroic and Swords Are Warlike trope, or we can have one trope about Swords Are The Most Common Weapon that notes all the reasons why this might be.

EDIT: How about this structure:

And possibly another about how a sword fight is more exciting/interesting than most other matchups and maybe about how swords just look "cooler" than other weapons (seems too subjective, but it could be a valid reason it's chosen for a character).

edited 5th Mar '12 11:37:02 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Is Swords Are Warlike actually a trope? Axes and maces and warhammers are used just as often to represent warriors, so the trope may as well be Weapons Are Warlike. And that's just People Sit on Chairs.

 73 Tera Chimera, Mon, 5th Mar '12 1:30:25 PM from hell if I know
Cool Celtic Composition
If Swords Are Warlike is more about the symbolism of swords, it could be Standard Sword Symbolism. And I think Anachronistic Weapon User might be better than Anachronistic Swordsman, because AWU would also cover stuff like bows and arrows.
Non sequiturs are like bicycles: they don't bathe or poach.
 74 Martello, Mon, 5th Mar '12 1:32:31 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
@Treblain - you didn't prove that all of those weapons have non-combat uses, because I just proved the opposite re: warhammers. Martello is Italian for hammer and I'm not referring to the kind you use to drive in nails.

Maces, morning stars, halberds and some of the other polearms are also purely weapons. Any of those could be used as a tool if you want to ruin them and/or injure yourself, just like you could do the same with a sword.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
 75 ccoa, Mon, 5th Mar '12 1:34:55 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
And I think Anachronistic Weapon User might be better than Anachronistic Swordsman, because AWU would also cover stuff like bows and arrows.

We already have a trope for anachronistic use of bows: The Straight and Arrow Path.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Alternative Titles: Deprecated Weapon YKTTW
21st Jun '12 9:21:06 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
At issue:

Total posts: 229
 1  2
3
 4  5  6  7  8 ... 10


TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy