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Dealing with potential complaint pages in YKTTW

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#1: Feb 19th 2012 at 2:32:13 PM

Carried over from here, it seems that we sometimes have YKTTWs that are mostly for complaining, or have the potential for becoming complaining.

Should we generally prohibit such YKTTWs? I.e No New Complaining Pages?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#2: Feb 19th 2012 at 2:36:33 PM

I'm reposting my original comment here:

I don't suppose we can have an official "No New Complaint Pages" policy? I mean, creating new subpages of existing pages would be okay, I guess, but we keep getting new "tropes" being proposed that basically amount to "Dethroning Moment Of Suck Times One Thousand", "Lets Find A New Way To Complain About A Very Specific Issue", "Trope X But Done Badly", "Fridge Suck", "Yet Another Way To Import Fandom Drama To TV Tropes" etc.

edited 19th Feb '12 2:36:43 PM by Catbert

troacctid "µ." from California Since: Apr, 2010
#3: Feb 19th 2012 at 2:39:43 PM

We used to have License To Whine talking about this, but it was cut.

Rhymes with "Protracted."
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
AGroupie sick of it all from City of Angelic Devils Since: Oct, 2009
sick of it all
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#6: Feb 21st 2012 at 6:23:46 AM

Support x 100. It's right there on the main page:

"We are also not a wiki for bashing things. Once again, we're about celebrating fiction, not showing off how snide and sarcastic we can be."

This is exactly why Tastes Like Dirt is going to be cut as per the TRS thread on it.

edited 21st Feb '12 6:35:47 AM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#7: Feb 21st 2012 at 9:28:53 AM

Support

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#8: Feb 21st 2012 at 9:31:30 AM

Should we YKTTW a No More Complaints Already page?

Goes without saying, support.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#9: Feb 21st 2012 at 9:32:19 AM

^Go ahead, but use a better title.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#10: Feb 21st 2012 at 9:33:13 AM

Yeah, that was just the general idea. evil grin

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
troacctid "µ." from California Since: Apr, 2010
#13: Feb 21st 2012 at 10:26:37 AM

Well the great thing about a Predefined Message is that you can give it redirects if you think it needs them. *shrug*

Rhymes with "Protracted."
FinalStarman from Clinton, Massachusetts Since: Nov, 2011
#14: Feb 21st 2012 at 7:05:28 PM

The third paragraph of Complaining About Shows You Dont Like discusses this, but I guess a redirect could be added.

[down] Oh yeah, you're right. I read it too quickly. Yeah, we don't need more It Sucks Audience Reactions. Might as well give 'em the Stock Phrase treatment when it comes to YKTTW.

edited 21st Feb '12 7:46:51 PM by FinalStarman

I'm not crazy, I just don't give a darn!
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#15: Feb 21st 2012 at 7:10:00 PM

^That talks about not stating opinion as if it were an objective fact. The thing is, even if we say "That's not an objective trope" people sometimes come back with "Its a YMMV Audience Reaction".

Personally, my preference is to squash any future Audience Reaction pages that basically amount to a licence to complain.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#16: Feb 22nd 2012 at 1:41:05 AM

^But how do you tell an Audience Reaction that is there to complain? It's not usually as obvious as So Bad It Sucks, and moreover, the It Sucks snowclones are, as far as I can tell, better than So Bad, It's Horrible and the like. The latter's are the true complaining pages.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#17: Feb 22nd 2012 at 6:40:15 AM

Well, to give you an example, someone in YKTTW proposed a "Cringe Inducing Song" page where people can list songs they hate. The sponser called it YMMV and highly subjective in the original post, so it is clear that he thought is was an audience reaction page for complaining about songs you don't like.

Aside from the fact that it is already covered by Horrible.Music, several people objected that we don't want more complaining pages. I edited it into a draft about a character in-universe hated song.

Perhaps Complaining About Shows You Dont Like can have some verbiage added to it to make it clear that we aren't just worried about passing off complaining as objective tropes, but that there is a growing consensus that we really don't need any more subjective pages for complaining.

edited 22nd Feb '12 6:41:00 AM by Catbert

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#18: Feb 22nd 2012 at 6:43:30 AM

Many legitimate Audience Reactions are some form of value judgment. How do we tell if a Audience Reaction that gives a value judgment is crossing over into the teritory where it can become a Complaining page?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#19: Feb 22nd 2012 at 6:44:27 AM

I think we need to be focusing on tropes, not opinions. You know, the mission of the wiki?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#20: Feb 22nd 2012 at 6:50:23 AM

Opinion and trope/Audience Reaction are not mutually exclusive. That is the problem, valid tropes/Audience Reactions that can also be used for complaining.

After all, something like Bad Movie would not be a trope at all and not likely make it out of YKTTW in the first place.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#21: Feb 22nd 2012 at 7:05:03 AM

Why are Audience Reactions even on here? They should have a separate namespace or something like that. Audience Reactions aren't tropes, and this site is getting bogged down in them.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#22: Feb 22nd 2012 at 7:26:06 AM

^This site's about storytelling, and people's reactions to it are just as important as the tropes.

Re namespaces, most Audience Reactions can be used In-Universe. We'd have to split each Audience Reaction between namespaces.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#23: Feb 22nd 2012 at 8:58:31 AM

How do we tell if a Audience Reaction that gives a value judgment is crossing over into the teritory where it can become a Complaining page?

When it exists soley to collect examples of things you don't like, or to make unsupported claims about what the "Fandom" doesn't like.

So, if you see something like Hatedom Event Horizon or Darth Wiki: Plot Derailing Comedy you can be fairly sure it is about complaining.

To quote a comment from the latter one: If a trope needs to head to Darth Wiki on launch, ask yourself: Do We Need This One?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the majority of our subjective audience reaction pages, like the Tearjerkers, Moments Of Awesome and such. And I'm not going to start a campaign to ditch the existing negative stuff on Darth Wiki. I just happen to think that we don't need to encourage people to create more and more pages for bashing things.

So an official and clearly spelled out policy about new pages, along the lines of No New Stock Phrases would, I think be benificial to the tone of this wiki.

edited 22nd Feb '12 9:03:39 AM by Catbert

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#24: Feb 22nd 2012 at 9:01:44 AM

How do we tell if a Audience Reaction that gives a value judgment is crossing over into the teritory where it can become a Complaining page?

When it exists soley to collect examples of things you don't like.

Ho can we see if it exists solely to collect things you don't like? And if something accidentally develops into such a page, or if the concept is good but the examples are complaining?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#25: Feb 22nd 2012 at 9:05:06 AM

Septimus, if someone creates a YKTTW draft entitled "List of Songs You Hate" how can that be interpeted as anything but complaining?


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