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Opaque name, a magnet for zero-content examples: The Barnum get usage counts

 1 Marq FJA, Sat, 18th Feb '12 3:19:25 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Problems: Named after a real-life person who is erroneously associated with the trope's primary quote, obscure name with no obvious meaning that relates to the definition, and a magnet for Zero-Context Example wicks.

Wick check results (50 wicks out of 123 total):

29 Unclear (mostly Zero Context Examples):

9 Incorrect (most of them appear to be assuming that "Con Man" equals "The Barnum"):

12 Correct (as far as I can tell, anyway):

Conclusion: This trope really needs a new, truly indicative name.

For what's it worth, I've found an already-existing alt-titles crowner for this trope.

edited 18th Feb '12 4:00:01 PM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
Shameless Shyster would be a perfect name

Shyster? I usually hear that referring to lawyers. Are people thinking of "shuckster"?

I feel guilty because the first person that popped into my head was the Fable character.

See, when I hear "Shyster", I think of Irwin R.

 7 Icarael, Sun, 19th Feb '12 2:13:22 AM from the Diliman Sprawl
Shameless Shuckster could work.
Compromise is the death bed of conviction.
Looks like shyster can cover this, but if people associate the word with "lawyer, " many will mistake this for Amoral Attorney. All the positive examples on urban dictionary mention lawyers. Dictionary.com puts "shady lawyer" as the primary meaning.

 9 Willbyr, Sun, 19th Feb '12 6:19:19 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
Shameless Con Man, Shameless Con Artist, Shameless Trickster... *shrug*

edited 19th Feb '12 6:19:31 AM by Willbyr

 10 Marq FJA, Sun, 19th Feb '12 6:46:28 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
How does Consummate Con Man sound? The primary aspect of this trope appears to be that the character lives for/on being a Con Man.

edited 19th Feb '12 6:47:07 AM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 11 Willbyr, Sun, 19th Feb '12 10:10:05 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] Consummate, to me, means exceptional, the epitome of whatever...for what the trope sounds like, I think Shameless works better.
 12 Marq FJA, Sun, 19th Feb '12 10:21:49 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Well, other than the shamelessness whenever confronted about their unscrupulous activities, this character does sound like an epitome of the Con Man to me. How about Shamelessly Consummate Con Man, then?

edited 19th Feb '12 10:23:02 AM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
We have a Con Man trope. We don't want a name that will be confused with that.

This is "A trickster-philosopher who lives by pandering to people's greed and gullibility."

Edit: Wait what? Is Con Man an index or or a character type trope? Oy vey... Another candidate for TRS.

edited 19th Feb '12 11:18:10 AM by Catbert

 14 Marq FJA, Sun, 19th Feb '12 11:54:50 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
The description reads like a Super Trope to me, though whoever made it obviously did a rather poor job of avoiding ambiguitiy, having written "tropes" instead of "subtropes".
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
Trickster And Thinker, then? Trickster And A Philosopher?
Quid autem coelo pulchrius, nempe quod continet pulchra omnia?
I don't think a new name is enough. We also need a better description, because I'm having a hard time figuring out how this compares to our other trickster tropes.

I think it would be easier to trope the kinds of swindles the real Barnum would pull, rather than the actual person who does the swindling.
I think this trope could be a lot broader than just con-men. Don't a lot of magicians basically fit this type? Take Derren Brown. He fits the description perfectly, but he's a mentalist/hypnotist/magician/TV personality.

If we could come up with a much broader name, this could potentially be a heavily-used trope.

edited 19th Feb '12 3:00:48 PM by abk0100

[up][up][up]Catbert: Which tropes did you have in mind?
 
I don't know about Catbert's issue, but I can share mine.

All the description tells me is The Same but More, Con Man who is happy. Which means the only Con Man who doesn't fit, is one who regrets his actions. We have a trope for criminals who regret their past, and wish to change?
Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
Hukster. Shukster is not a word.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
For a bit of history, this used to be called Humphrey.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070505070715/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Humphrey
A trickster-philosopher, who lives by pandering to people's greed and gullibility. Not only does he never feel guilty about it, he will be offended by suggestions that he stop. If people want to be tricked, who is he to say no?

The true mark of a Humphrey is how serene and happy they are, despite what they do every day. They have reached a cynic's nirvana.

Named for two Humphreys: Sir Humphrey Applebee of Yes Minister, and Mr. Humphries of Are You Being Served? Sir Humphrey had a cynical motto for everything ("Gratitude is merely the expectation of future reward, " "The Official Secrets Act exists to protect officials, not secrets"), and was always cool — except when some honesty broke into his perfect world. Mr. Humphries knew how ridiculous his job was, and did it just as absurdly as he was supposed to. After all, he was never the one who had to face the consequences — that was the boss or the customers.

edited 22nd Mar '12 5:02:15 AM by Catbert

Honestly, I think we need to scrap this page and start from scratch. The description is incoherent and most of the examples are bad.

Create a trope for showmen/advertisers that make their living off of exagerated claims, dubious advertising, and sometimes even down right hoaxes. Those are the traits I would associate with PT Barnum. Give the new page a new name. The Barnum can be a redirect to that.

 24 Marq FJA, Thu, 22nd Mar '12 5:57:31 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
I think you're on to something there.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 25 Spark 9, Thu, 5th Apr '12 7:52:53 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Bump. Should we cutlist this and YKTTW it anew?
Special trousers. Very heroic.

Alternative Titles: Trickster And Thinker
23rd Nov '12 8:19:04 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Pick a name for this YKTTW.
Total posts: 57
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