Redefine and Rename (alt titles crowner 4/9): Amazon Chaser

This is now the third time that Hot Amazon has gone through TRS, and at this point I think it's fair to ask a question:

Is it possible we're misinterpreting what this trope actually is?

By this, I don't mean we're misinterpreting the description, I mean the description misinterprets the trope. This isn't a case where we can go back to YKTTW and tease out original intent either, because my opinion is that would be wrong, too (and there isn't a link to a YKTTW discussion for this trope anyway). Part of this is my guilt at my own role in this trope's creation and the state it's in. There was a discussion thread, waaaaay back under the old discussion system, where I raised the possibility that men might be threatened by strong women, but I intended it to be a description of a real-life phenomenon (or at least, the media's perception of it) and it wasn't until No Guy Wants an Amazon was created that I found out that no one else agreed with me. So we wound up with a trope where the person whose comment led to its creation didn't agree with its existence.

Hot Amazon describes itself as the counterpoint to and aversion of No Guy Wants an Amazon, yet Hot Amazon is substantially longer, even after the cleanup that followed the first thread. Given this unusual state of affairs, I'm fairly certain the only reason Hot Amazon describes itself in opposition to No Guy Wants an Amazon is because No Guy Wants an Amazon came first. (The page, not the trope. I doubt No Guy Wants an Amazon has an example anywhere near as old as Greek Mythology.) Unfortunately, I'm worried that the description may have already led us astray, as I've become increasingly convinced the decision to split out Amazonian Beauty in the first thread may have at least partly been a mistake, inadvertently narrowing the definition without realizing it. As long as the description goes unaddressed, unchallenged, and treated as gospel, with each new thread and every cleaning-out of "misuse", we slowly and inadvertently shift the trope to match the description.

Namely, because the description defines the trope in terms of the boyfriend's reaction to her, we slowly turn it into Action Girlfriend, which I'm convinced is the trope this description is trying to be. That trope's description starts with the line "A series centered around the premise of Hot Amazon" and ends with "Contrast No Guy Wants an Amazon." I'm almost convinced the current description of Hot Amazon describes that trope better than this one (although it does leave open the possibility of an All Amazons Want Hercules situation, while Action Girlfriend seems to require a Non-Action Guy, at least before Character Development).

I should hasten to add that I don't entirely disagree with what was done in previous threads, as this trope probably shouldn't be a YMMV dumping ground for audience reactions, and given the present status quo, where (judging by the last thread) the trope has already been narrowed to, essentially, match the laconic (perhaps without the emphasis on the word "because", at least not yet), with "an Action Girl who is attractive" filtered out into Amazonian Beauty and Statuesque Stunner, I'm not sure what is to be done here. I will throw out, however, that Hot Amazon and No Guy Wants an Amazon are not mutually exclusive. Someone may find someone else physically attractive, or even be turned on by their fighting prowess, but I don't think that necessarily means they're excited by the prospect of getting together with them. I can easily see the thought process, "Wow, she kicks ass? That's hot! But boy, I wouldn't want to be her boyfriend..."

Whatever we do, however, we should at least ask ourselves the question: "What would this trope be if No Guy Wants an Amazon didn't exist?"

I always thought the aforementiond tropes were like:

• No Guy Wants an Amazon - When a man does not want a woman because of her Action Girl status (example: a woman who can fight turns guys off because they are worried about emasculation, the fact they could beat up her boyfriend, etc.)
• Hot Amazon - A man finds a woman's ass-kicking abilities hot (example: man finds a woman who can fight well, and finds her fighting skills to be attractive)
• Amazonian Beauty - A woman is physically strong looking (as in having noticeable muscles) is presented with fanservice
• Statuesque Stunner - A woman who is tall is presented with fanservice

All four of those tropes are different from each other, in my opinion. I think the problem with Hot Amazon lies in that a lot of people add any Action Girl into it that they feel is hot; not Action Girl characters whose fighting skills have been said to be attractive in the stories they appear in.

In the last go-round, I thought we created one trope too many. I think the lines are too obscure and confused between Hot Amazon, Statuesque Stunner, and Amazonian Beauty, and that the three tropes could and should be collapsed into two. (I'm not sure precisely how at this point, though.)

The tell-tale sign of this sort of problem is when three related, but supposedly distinct, tropes all have nearly-identical example lists.

edited 17th Feb '12 8:25:11 AM by suedenim

As much as I hate using titles as scapegoats, in this case, I think the nebulous title is the problem. It only describes the trope if you conform to one narrow meaning of Amazon.

I don't see the example lists as all the same. However; I believe we may need to change the names of the tropes as I think everyone is using their own definitions of "Amazon" for Hot Amazon.

Maybe if we specify Hot Amazon and No Guy Wants an Amazon with names like Action Girls Are Hot and Action Girls Are Not Hot or something like that? I know they're not too catchy (the names I just suggested). The other tropes, Statuesque Stunner and Amazonian Beauty could also be renamed so what they mean is evident just in the trope name too.

Statuesque Stunner and Amazonian Beauty's names are fine. And rather than Action Girls Are Not Hot, how about No Guy Wants An Action Girl?

Works for me; any ideas for a new name for Hot Amazon?

How about we make this trope about characters having the opinion that being an Action Girl is hot, or being attracted to Action Girls and/or Amazonian Beauties, somewhat like Chubby Chaser and Likes Older Women?

edited 17th Feb '12 11:22:34 AM by MarqFJA

That's what it is already.

I meant particular characters having the opinion/reaction, not the Action Girl inciting this reaction in an unspecified number of other characters.

Ah.

So you mean Likes Action Girls?

I heartily approve of renaming and/or redefining this. I clean up a lot of misuse to mean "Action Girl that I find attractive". On Avatar The Legend Of Korra I had to put comments on the main and character page telling people to stop adding it already, because it kept freaking coming back.

edited 17th Feb '12 12:16:45 PM by ccoa

Agreed with Ccoa.

edited 17th Feb '12 12:21:20 PM by darkclaw

Likes Action Girls could be a great alternative. Every applicable example will stay, but it will be much harder to squeeze in personal lust tangents.

I'm against any replacement of 'Amazon' with Action Girl. Action Girl is overused to the point of meaninglessness, and doesn't have the same meaning anyway.

Amazon is a thousands-years-old term, and No Guy Wants an Amazon and Hot Amazon are ancient tropes. They're not universal, and we shouldn't present No Guy Wants an Amazon as the "expected" position for men to take and Hot Amazon (or whatever) as a shocking, unusual reversal. Both are tropes which may hold different positions based on the culture they're used in.

Well yeah, there's a good argument out there for cutting Action Girl, but though the trope has dubious merit on its own, it can work well attached to other concepts. (Similarly The Damsel would be a pretty pointless trope, but that doesn't mean we can't have a Distressed Damsel page.)

No Guy Wants an Amazon may go back millennia, but it's not some certain standard against which we have to phrase this page. It's not even universal. Far from it. Though large muscles may not be attractive, and guys don't want their girlfriends to upstage them, when a story portrays a girl as skilled or a good fighter, it more often than not depicts her as attractive - to the audience, but also to other characters.

How is Action Girl overused? Is it over-DOSED? Because the two are completely different things.

It's overused in that in includes everyone who engages in action scenes and is biologically female, to the point where the trope loses its use in tracking a real concept or trend.

The page was about the subversion of the Distressed Damsel concept, but at a certain point, listing all female characters does nothing to show the change in the male-female character dynamic. Like, if a page wants to talk about Ripley and Sarah Connor and feminism, yeah, there's a lot of scope there, but if the page includes every RPG female fighter from games that include both sexes, that starts to lose its tropiness.

I think Action Girl is mostly properly used; it may have some improper uses given all its wicks, but I don't know any. My only problem with it is that there is no Action Guy due to the Double Standard.

As for No Guy Wants an Amazon; I agree it is not universal, but I thought the trope was only for in-story individual character examples. I think that Hot Amazon is currently the reverse of that; but one problem I see with it is some people say things like "Asuka is an Action Girl and considered hot In-Universe, so she's a Hot Amazon." No...if the In-Universe reaction was "Damn, Asuka can kick ass, man that's hot!"" from one character then she would be a Hot Amazon to one character, not necessarily to everyone In-Universe.

I also find with Amazonian Beauty that people sometimes don't actually read the trope description and post anything on the page (it's rare, but for example, someone once said Big Barda is tall and hot...with that description, she fits Statuesque Stunner, albeit Big Barda is sometimes portrayed with Fanservice and large muscles). So, maybe the same thing (not reading the page) is happening with Hot Amazon, hence some misuse?

I agree with that it feels not completely needed due to that. There's no Action Guy, badass men are just linked to badass. I remember when Action Girl was nearly cut, it was argued that it should not be cut because Action Girl characters are not expected of women. I would argue that women are not necessarily expected to be an Action Girl, but it's not like it's rare or anything. I think it is just that women can be Action Girl types, Distressed Damsel types, etc. ...but they're still judged passively due to the Double Standard (how many ugly or physically scarred Action Girl characters can you think of vs. how many Ms. Fanservice Action Girl types can you think of, as an example). Additionally; there are other stereotypes often added, like how on kids shows, they often hit male characters but are rarely hit or hurt themselves due to Waif-Fu or something else allowing them to look sexy but subtly invoke Wouldn't Hit a Girl. Male badasses though, due to being judged more on action, usually can be hit, die more often and usually are less about looking hot and more about fighting plausibly and advancing the plot (look how many main male action-oriented protagonists there are then female; although there are a few like Buffy The Vampire Slayer). So, basically Action Girl stayed due to the differences between male action-oriented characters and female action-oriented characters; as I recall.

edited 17th Feb '12 6:48:25 PM by darkclaw

Is that not the trope?

Like I said, that sounds like an overdose issue. If a woman is participating in an action scene, then she technically qualifies. Even a Combat Medic is brave enough to deserve that distinction.

I was part of the crew that first put the trope together, and that entry is probably mine, knowing how I tend to focus on comic books. In the original inception of the page, there wasn't much more going on except "this character is big muscley and hot". It wasn't until captainpat came by later and cut stuff that was X Just X that we started discriminating entries.

edited 17th Feb '12 6:47:41 PM by KingZeal

I always thought the woman had to be fighting somehow to qualify for Action Girl status.

Don't worry about it King Zeal, I probably put something like that myself over at Amazonian Beauty.

edited 17th Feb '12 6:50:20 PM by darkclaw

Being a Combat Medic is fighting.

What we probably need is an Omnipresent Supertrope of every completely homogenized and stereotypical character we can think of.

From the woman who can't fight, stays in the kitchen, and doesn't have an opinion to call her own...

To the black guy who is stupid, brutish, and rapes white women.

Also, I'm only HALF joking.

edited 17th Feb '12 7:11:44 PM by KingZeal

Technically, we've got Action Hero for the counterpart for Action Girl, but it's rarely used that way.

I'm in support of a rename. This trope has nothing the physical attractiveness of a character so having "hot" in the title is extremely misleading and it shows all over the wicks.

@ Zeal

Oh, my bad, I thought Combat Medic was someone who goes into combat to heal others; I didn't know they participated in combat until I clicked the link.

Just looked at Action Hero, it is gender neutral but Action Girl seems to be Action Hero but female and "different" due to Double Standard.

edited 17th Feb '12 8:22:13 PM by darkclaw