TV Tropes Org

Forums

Repair Shop Morgue:
Needs Help: Lightning Bruiser
Deadlock Clock: 11th Mar '13 11:59 PM
search forum titles
google site search
Wiki Headlines
It's time for the Second TV Tropes Halloween Avatar Contest! Details here.
Total posts: [256]  1  2  3
4
 5  6  7  8  9 ... 11

Needs Help: Lightning Bruiser get usage counts

I don't understand how "there is a vocal minority who think there is a problem" is evidence that there is a problem. Maybe they are just wrong.

Also three of those five links are to the beginning of a conversation that explicitly concludes images that depict three stats (instead of two) are wrong, a person agreeing that there is no problem, and a person who agrees in other places that there is no problem. One is to yourself, and the last is an opinion based on the erroneous imagery. That is mostly support for the opposite of what you are describing.

edited 18th Jun '12 6:32:59 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
 77 Serocco, Mon, 18th Jun '12 5:55:18 PM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
[up] So, you're saying that this is a non-issue?
Men aren't men without women.
Yes.
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
It is definitely a non-issue.

Watch the picture for Glass Cannon, Fragile Speedster and Stone Wall. They are all wrong.
Yeah, exactly. I said as much in the IP thread, but nobody believed me, apparently.

edited 18th Jun '12 9:10:23 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
I'd support a split; while you can define a trope in a 2 stat exchange, the three stat system is very common, and comparisons are going to spring up no matter what. It's more useful to split tropes where necessary than to shove a ton of examples that can end up being very different.

Arguments that "bringing another stat in results in infinite permutations!" is true, but in this instance, we're not considering adding something wholly unrelated to the current properties to it. The Speed/Power/Defense relations already exist, and the holes are visible if you look.

It's not "there is a vocal minority who think there is a problem", it's "there is a significant minority who are wrong on the definition of the trope and it is a problem".

First link :
I was thinking we could illustrate them ourselves with a bunch of graphs. All of these refer to the same 3 stats: Attack, Defense, and Speed. All we have to do is make an graph for each one to make them uniform.

second link :
Dammit, this thread is too long and confusing to take it all in, so I'm just gonna go ahead and say I agree with rodney anonymous. Also, Lightning Bruiser is speed+damage.

third link :
I thought Stone Wall used the triangle as well.

fourth link :
every example from it.

last link :
Looking at the "power triangle" (with the vertices of power, toughness, and speed), I think it might be instructive to look at what tropes fit the various shapes it can take:

Miserable in all three: Joke Character Good attack, bad defense and speed: Glass Cannon Good defense, bad attack and speed: Stone Wall, toughness-based Good speed, bad attack and defense: Fragile Speedster, and possibly the agility-based Stone Wall (for example, the Minimize/Recover stalling Starmie in Pokemon). Good attack and defense, bad speed: Mighty Glacier Okay in all three: Jack-of-All-Stats Mediocre in all three: Master of None

The way I see it, the confusion lies in the fact that Lightning Bruiser is used for both "Good in all three" and "Good attack and speed, bad defense." These are two different types (although against weaker competition, they can generally be played the same) and probably should each have their own trope.

edited 19th Jun '12 3:38:01 AM by VioletOrange

...can still bite
Since there is a debate going on as to whether there is a problem or not, I decided to look at the trope examples of Lightning Bruiser and Fragile Speedster to see if there were any bad examples that didn't fit the complete description.

Lightning Bruiser is split into three different categories: Fast-moving Big Bruisers, Hard-hitting Speedsters, and Machines. Most of the examples in the first and third categories are OK, but the "Hard-hitting Speedsters" category only implies offense and speed, not defense. I found several examples (listed below) that either do not mention defense at all or have bad defense, and several more examples only mention a balance of "strength" and speed, which may also be bad depending on whether you interpret "strength" as offense and defense or offense only.

  • Bleach: Soifon is the main example of the series. She's a tiny woman but is one of the fastest captains in the Gotei 13. Her attacks are based on her exceptional speed and use it to full advantage. On top of that, however, the Official Bootleg confirms that her strongest ability is actually her physical strength rather than her speed. As a result, she's the unarmed combat expert of the captains, something that allows her to use her two strongest abilities together and to their maximum potential. In the manga, her great physical strength manifests in bankai form. As a nuke.
  • Naruto- Many of the top tier Naruto shinobi move insanely fast & yet can hit deceptively strong. Some prominent examples would be Minato, , Maito Gai, Rock lee etc.
  • The Flash, whenever the writers don't forget how much it sucks to be punched by someone going that fast.
  • Wonder Woman is this version. She's about as fast and strong as Superman, but has to rely on her bracers to deflect shrapnel and bullets.
  • Toothless in How to Train Your Dragon. His species is so fast that the only time you know it's there is when it's blown something up. He then uses this to do a sort of Teleport Spam in the final battle.
  • River Tam in Serenity; for someone that small, she hits hard as hell.
  • None of the Sports examples mention defense.
  • High Elf heavy cavalry (Silver Helms and Dragon Princes) in Warhammer Fantasy. Lightning quick and can deliver tremendous blow - almost as efficient as the Bretonnian knights. Not as durable, though, but have better initiative in combat.
  • Ayla of Chrono Trigger. She uses only physical attacks, as she was born before humans gained the power to use magic. She hits harder than anyone else in the game at that point, AND out-speeds over half the character roster. Conveniently, you get the Berserker Ring not long before. Add in her late weapon that does 9999 damage on a critical, and you got a powerhouse on your hands. Most of the other characters can accomplish this with proper tweaking of stats.
  • Marisa Kirisame of Touhou. Her bullets fire mainly in front of her, dishing out narrow but concentrated damage, and she moves faster than Reimu, who in many games is the only other playable character.

On the other hand, most of the Fragile Speedster examples fit the description and don't mention offense at all. If this is because the offense of the examples is simply not worth mentioning, then creating the Fast And Fragile Bruiser trope would not conflict with Fragile Speedster, even if the latter trope's description wasn't changed. However, if a lot of the examples do have high offense that was left out because of the trope description, creating a new trope may cause problems.

edited 19th Jun '12 6:53:20 PM by shiro_okami

The "Hard-hitting speedsters" section of Lightning Bruiser needs to go. It's problematic.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Accelolita's Butler
So which one it should be for "good attack and speed, bad offense", then?

Glass Lightning or Fast And Fragile Bruiser?

 85 Justa Username, Wed, 20th Jun '12 5:08:59 AM from Melbourne, Australia Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Psionic Little Dragon
[up][up]Or we could change the name. We just needs to find something that implies toughness and attack power while emphasizing speed.

[up]Well, Fast And Fragile Bruiser is clearer but a bit long while Glass Lightning is catchy but not so clear. Than again in Glass Lightning's defense, neither is Lightning Bruiser.
Some people say I'm lazy. It's hard to disagree.
[up][up] Put it under Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster. It's okay to be both.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
I'm partial to using Glass Ninja to describe the Fast And Strong But Fragile. From the Glass Cannon page:

Glass Cannons often overlap with the Fragile Speedster; characters of that type, who put out high damage and dodge most incoming attacks, but go down quickly if they do get hit, are sometimes called "Glass Ninja."

For the name of the trope of something which is fast, fragile and not durable, there is a crowner here. Feel free to add suggestion, but please mentioned that you did so here.

On the splitting, I am really in favor on making subtrope rather than completely separate tropes. That way, GC and SW don't take 'speed' in consideration as default but can, if speed is a factor. If speed is important the Sub Tropes will be used to differentiate, if they are not, (like in card games) the Sub Tropes are ignored (Thank you Heatth).

@ Troacctid and Rodney Anonymous,
Do you now agree that there is a significant minority who are wrong about the definition of the tropes mentioned here (and of course, that it is a problem) ? If you aren't, what would you accept as a proof of this kind of situation and would you accept the result of a crowner on this question ?

...can still bite
I don't think we need to split any tropes. Even if none of the trope descriptions change, Stone Wall and Fragile Speedster shouldn't have any problems co-existing with a new Fast And Fragile Bruiser trope as they are right now. Glass Cannon is the only trope that may need some example clean-up and some description tweaking. I don't like the idea of making offensive speedster sections in both the Glass Cannon AND Fragile Speedster tropes because it would be redundant.

[up] A crowner would be nice.

edited 20th Jun '12 2:59:27 PM by shiro_okami

"Do you now agree that there is a significant minority who are wrong about the definition of the tropes mentioned here (and of course, that it is a problem) ?"

Not sure what a "significant" minority is. It is obviously true that there is a minority who see a problem. Change would need consensus, not a minority.
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
The question wasn't "Is there a minority who see a problem about the definition of the tropes mentioned here", it was " Is there is a significant minority(by which I means that it isn't one or two people, it is something that can be regularly observed and maybe isn't even a minority) who are wrong about the definition of the tropes mentioned here ?". If you prefer, what sentences do you think are wrong here

1) There is misuse on the Lighning Bruiser page.
2) The misuse observed now is the same that was observed during the last TRS, in which a clean up and a reworking of the description has been done. Therefore, neither of those solution will be sufficient to prevent future misuses.
3) There is a good number of people who are wrong about the definition of Glass Cannon, Lightning Bruiser and Stone Wall, which is a problem.

If you disagree with any of these point without giving argument or try again to not answer the question asked, I will simply ignore you in this conversation and encourage anyone to do the same. If you agree with all of these points, then you agree that there are problem which need to be solved.

Now the more controversial point.
4) These problems are related. For at least a significant minority, speed damage and defense are related with one another. Thus, they think that Glass Cannon refer to slow build and put their Fast Glass Cannon example in the trope they think refer to it.
5) Creating a subtrope of Glass Cannon which contains those example will solve these problem, without causing other.

Of course, if you say 5 is wrong, you should be able to explain what would be the next TRS on this subject, should the subtrope being created (for instance if you think that the trope are too rigid, the next TRS will be about the subtrope having slow or medium speed Glass Cannon)

edited 21st Jun '12 12:19:34 PM by VioletOrange

Glass Cannons may be slow, medium, or fast. That trope does not describe speed. Sometimes the best response to "there is misuse" is to remove the misuse.
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
His subtrope would, like Mighty Glacier isn't about appearance at all, and yet Glacier Waif is (do note that despite the existence of this subtrope, people still don't define implicitly or not Mighty Glacier by appearance. As for clean up only, read my previous post, point 2 in particular.

edit: major correction, I forgot the entire half of the first sentence and sound like a jerkass

edited 21st Jun '12 11:42:40 PM by VioletOrange

Crowner time. Is this good, or does anyone want to correct the text, add another solution, or correct the pro cons of each solution ?

Text of the crowner

Confusion exist on the Lightning Bruiser page (supposed to be about high attack, high defense and high speed, has example of high attack, high speed, low defense), and a good number of people are confused about the definition of Competitive Balance trope (see more here).

proposed solutions

Clean up the example of Lightning Bruiser.
pro : simple
con : already tried a few months ago on a previous TRS and failed.

Created a new trope which would be a subtrope of Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster, and deplace the misplaced trope here.
pro: would resolve the confusion.
con: trope may be too narrow.

...can still bite
[up] You're not listing those solutions as if we can only choose one or the other, are you? Because what we really need to do is do both. That's likely the reason the first clean-up failed, because a specific trope was never made for the cleaned-up examples to go to.

Also, a subtrope cross between Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster wouldn't be any more narrow than Mighty Glacier, which is essentially a cross between Glass Cannon and Stone Wall. I don't think it's a legitimate con.

edited 26th Jun '12 3:14:37 PM by shiro_okami

I tried to go through the examples on Lightning Bruiser and I think its problem is that it's trying to be multiple different tropes that are all slightly similar but not quite the same:
  • A Competitive Balance trope for characters who are strong in all three of speed, offense, and defense
  • A Competitive Balance trope for the inverse of Master of None: a character whose stats are all above average (whether Purposefully Overpowered or with some other drawback to compensate).
  • A trope for any character who is physically large/heavy, but still moves fast.
  • A trope for any character who is both fast and powerful, regardless of weight class.

There are examples on the page that fit all four categories. The last one is definitely wrong, so we can scrap that (it's not really a trope anyway), but the description waffles around enough to make the other three ambiguous. Thoughts?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
I don't think pros or cons should ever be on a crowner.

It is impossible to make them unbiased. Those are your pro/cons; I think they're misleading, and would write different ones; a third person might write a third pair. Unless you want to have a crowner for crowner options, better to not list any.

edited 26th Jun '12 5:13:30 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
@ shiro okami and Rodney Anonymous,

These pro and con are supposed to be a summary of the position here, not the truth (I too am not convinced at all by the "too narrow" argument, but since we didn't manage to reach the consensus on this, this con should stay). And Rodney Anonymous, you can add pro and con and, if consensus is reached here that they are wrong, removed some.

@ shiro okami,

Glass Cannon and Stone Wall are polar opposite and cannot be merged (high offense and low defense vs low offense and high damage), unless you presume wrongly from their name and basic logic that both of them are also slow.

@ Troacctid,

So you want to rerewrite the description ? I am not against it, at least not before I see the new description, but I really don't think it will change much. The problem lies more in Shinro's post than in the description of Lightning Bruiser(although I wonder how we miss this gem in it : the Stone Wall, who can take even more but can't dish out or move well either), which is clearly about fast, durable and damaging build.

edited 27th Jun '12 12:06:31 PM by VioletOrange

...can still bite
[up] Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in what I said. When I said "merge", I meant Mighty Glacier had both of the advantages of Glass Cannon and Stone Wall (without the specifically mentioned drawbacks of either, since having both advantages negate them, but a new drawback of slowness). In the same way, the new trope would have both of the advantages of Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster, and would have the common drawback of fragility. Both Mighty Glacier and the new trope would basically be two sides of the same triangle.

I don't think it needs a full rewrite, but the description of Lightning Bruiser could use a cleanup.

edited 27th Jun '12 5:51:15 PM by shiro_okami

So, do we agree for this ?

Text of the crowner

Confusion exist on the Lightning Bruiser page (supposed to be about high attack, high defense and high speed, has example of high attack, high speed, low defense), and a good number of people are confused about the definition of Competitive Balance trope (see more here).

proposed solutions

Clean up the example of Lightning Bruiser.
pro : simple
con : already tried a few months ago on a previous TRS and failed.

Clean up the example of Lightning Bruiser and rewrite the description. pro : simple
con : already tried a few months ago on a previous TRS and failed.

Clean up the example of Lightning Bruiser, rewrite the description and created a new trope which would be a subtrope of Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster, and deplace the misplaced trope here.
pro: would resolve the confusion.
con: trope may be too narrow.

Page Action: Lightning Bruiser 4
26th Nov '12 9:26:54 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Total posts: 256
 1  2  3
4
 5  6  7  8  9 ... 11


TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy