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Rename: NEW CROWNER (Alt Titles 12-28-12): Asian Gal With White Guy get usage counts

We seemed to agree on "Asian woman in a relationship with a white male, where the white male has the power."

Another person
What now?
If you eat a live frog in the morning, nothing worse will happen to either of you for the rest of the day.
Maybe the name could be changed to be more accurate. Asia is a region, while white is a skin color (though could be argued also an ethnic group). A person could be white and Asian. Asian Gal And European Guy would make more sense, or Yellow Gal And White Guy to make it clear it doesn't include Indian, Israeli, Kazakhstani, and all other Asian groups, and that it refers to physical appearance. Otherwise, it'd be like saying "Canadian Gal And Trekkie Guy" as a mixed race.
 
No, that would just make the name even LESS indicative of the trope.

And "Yellow" is just offensive.

 330 Septimus Heap, Sat, 25th Aug '12 2:11:09 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
[up][up]The problem is not about that, but the "Yellow" bit would put more emphasis on the racist/stereotype nature of such relationships.

Also, we have already decided on renaming. We still need a definition written down.

The problem is a bit of a double standard, then, if we choose to leave out "yellow" for being offensive, but keep in "white". Additionally, I do agree that "white" and "Asian" are not mutually exclusive anymore than "black" and "American" (civil rights activist Arudou Debito has been pushing for years to get people to recognize that he is both 100% white, and 100% Asian, being a white male of European decent who emigrated from the US to Japan, and now is Japanese. As a resident of Nanjing, I've seen other people of Western decent struggle for acceptance as Chinese, even though their skin color isn't what is commonly thought of when one thinks of "Chinese". ). This distinction was also made by Chinese netizens in reference to Lou Jing, who is Chinese, born in Shanghai, but black http://www.chinasmack.com/2009/stories/shanghai-black-girl-lou-jing-racist-chinese-netizens.html (comments, translated from the original Chinese, such as "Ugh. Yellow people and black people mixed together is very gross…only black skin, not yellow skin, chocolate skin…"

The problem is it's not 100% clear whether this is based on physical characteristics (which would make references to skin color somewhat more appropriate), or the attraction is cultural, or both.

I would propose "Eastern/Western Attraction". For one, Eastern and Western are both equivalent terms (where as "White" and "Asian" are not), is a bit more inclusive, as it implies not merely skin color, but also culture and background, and covers both genders. There are plenty of Chinese girls (of Chinese decent) who are more attracted to, or exclusively attracted to, Westerners, or Chinese men of European decent.

Alternatively, I would also suggest "East Asian/European Attraction" (or some sort of similar title), as I've noticed the people of African decent, whether Chinese or not, have a very different experience when it comes to dating and relationships (as well as many, many other parts of life... it's complicated, as the above link shows). It's also important to specify "East Asian", since the trope doesn't seem to apply to people of Indian, Israeli, Russian, or other Asian decent.

Unfortuntaly, you can't really be catchy as well as accurate, but the trope title, as is, just is widely inaccurate.

edited 5th Oct '12 11:10:47 PM by Maitiu

 
You're proposing to make the trope too politically correct at the exclusion of clarity.

"White" and "Western" are not the same thing. Mexico is also "western", but it is not "white". Tupac Shakur is "western" but also not white. The reason the term "white" is used is because it's an ethnic group used to collectively describe most western Europeans and North Americans.

"Yellow" doesn't work here because it's a term no one really uses anymore whereas "white" is.

Piffy
"White Man's Asian Woman" seems like a concise way to put it without falling back on racist terminology, and is about as minimally racist as we're gonna manage for this trope, IMHO.

edited 15th Oct '12 9:12:25 PM by Pig_catapult

Because underscores break everything: Working link to my Troper page
 334 Septimus Heap, Sat, 13th Oct '12 5:25:22 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Hmm...how much would a "neutralization" of the name lead to Trope Decay. This is an offensive trope.

[up][up]I like that one.
 
I'm not wanting to make it too politically correct, but rather just correct. White is not mutually exclusive with Asian. White people can be Asian, hence the two terms aren't really equivalent. Also, "yellow" is a term that is used (I'm in Nanjing, and have heard firsthand), and makes more sense in context, since Country region = Country region (Asian's equivalent would be European or African), and skin color's equivalent is skin color, but skin color isn't the same as country region.

Related, but I would like to also just say that simply because a term isn't often used, or is, doesn't mean it's necessarily right. The most common Chinese word for a white person/Caucasian is "waiguoren" (meaning "outside country person", or "foreigner), regardless of what country they are from, or a citizen of. This even is applied to a lesser extent to non-Han Chinese (Chinese recognized minority ethnic groups such as Uyghurs or Russians), who are called "foreigners" even if they have generations of ancestry in China, and are recognized as one of the official Chinese minority groups. Hence, just because terms are popular, doesn't mean they are accurate, or correct.

Mexico is a country, so Mexican could be used to describe residents of Mexico regardless of color.

"White Man's Asian Woman" , or the previous, still kinda is racist in terminology. If you're going to use skin color to refer to people, then it should be across the board. Otherwise it's both racist, and inaccurate. The reason for a change is for accuracy as well as offensiveness. It's the same reason why renaming "Where Da White Women At" to "Black Man's European Women" would be a problem.

edited 14th Oct '12 2:52:53 PM by Maitiu

 
 337 Septimus Heap, Sun, 14th Oct '12 2:48:35 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
The other idea is White Mans Yellow Woman, but is it good for the definition?

The other idea is better, though we just need to be sure what the trope is about. "White Mans Yellow Woman" implies a possessiveness for the man. It was my understanding that this trope was more about attraction, rather than an entitlement to own or possess. Also, does this trope exclude the woman's attraction toward the man? I've noticed, both in fiction and real life, an attraction from yellow/East Asian women toward white/Western men, and was wondering if those should go in this trope, or if they should be separate (and can they be separate). For instance, is the attraction between Wolverine and Itsu purely one way attraction, or mutual? If it's mutual, it's not really this trope, unless the understanding of the trope is to include mutual attraction (characteristics that help explain this trope, attraction to a certain set of physical characteristics, cultural differences, and an attraction to what is deemed "exotic" work both ways. To Itsu, Wolverine has a level of exoticism, being a foreigner from the mysterious West). Similarly, all instances of this trope can be examined thusly.

 
I'm not wanting to make it too politically correct, but rather just correct. White is not mutually exclusive with Asian. White people can be Asian, hence the two terms aren't really equivalent. Also, "yellow" is a term that is used (I'm in Nanjing, and have heard firsthand), and makes more sense in context, since Country region = Country region (Asian's equivalent would be European or African), and skin color's equivalent is skin color, but skin color isn't the same as country region.

But this trope isn't making that distinction.

This is not a trope about a relationship between Caucasian-Asian person and an Asian. This is a trope about racist and cross-cultural stereotypes, not about accurate labels. What we need are clear labels that apply to Western plot concepts. Yellow simply isn't a term the West uses as often as "Asian", and "White" is a term used to describe people of European ancestry.

when you have to check a box as to what race you are on official documents they use the terms "White" and "Asian." Not "European, " not "Yellow." The only race that uses both 'location' and 'color' is the "Black / African American" category

Whether or not we think of yellow is a slur or as used to make a point / be congruent with other 'race colors' depends on context. but its not the official word.

edited 14th Oct '12 6:50:59 PM by acrobox

 
Just because a term is used by a lot of people, doesn't make it correct, or accurate. Again, there are Asians who are also white (I know several personally). In China, for instance, anyone not Han Chinese, though most especially whites, are referred to as "waiguoren" (literally: "outside country person", or "foreigner"), even if they are native-born Chinese. It's incorrect, and offensive to those who are non-Han Chinese, but it's common.

Also, we have the checkbox "Non-white Hispanic" as a checkbox (sometimes as Latino), but we aren't changing the "Ambiguously brown" trope to "Ambiguously non-white H Ispanic", as that would end up as nonsensical, and not accurate.

The point still remains that Asia is a world region, while white is a skin color descriptor, hence they are not equivalent, even if there are checkboxes.

 
For the purposes of this wiki, "asian" is the best term to describe the ethnicity.

 343 qtjinla 15, Mon, 29th Oct '12 3:17:01 PM from Los Angeles
Qtjinla15
Kind of like Zeal's Proposal.

I see the "Crowner Closed", but it ended in a tie! Does that mean that we are stuck, and we can't fix the trope?
 
 345 Septimus Heap, Fri, 2nd Nov '12 6:45:24 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
No. This crowner was meant to fix an annoying arguing-in-circles issue and predictably it sunk both sides of the circular argument. There should be third options available.

edited 2nd Nov '12 6:45:46 AM by SeptimusHeap

 346 shimaspawn, Fri, 2nd Nov '12 8:18:33 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Societal correctness and PC terms come at the expense of clarity. This trope is neither societally correct or PC. Attempting to name it in those terms caused the current mess. Knock it off. Next person trying to be PC of societally correct about it will be thumped.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 347 shimaspawn, Fri, 2nd Nov '12 8:46:34 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Docile Asian Strong Whitey? That seems to get the juxtaposition of the roles. As for a definition. How is this:

This is a very racist trope where a white man will take an Asian lover who bends easily to his whims. It stems not just on race relations, but from men overpowering women in general. This trope is frequently fetishized and tends to appear more in older works.

The woman will be some combination of:
  • Submissive
  • Dependant on the man in some way (Money, emotional support, green card, etc.)
  • Sexually available

While the man will be:
  • Dominant
  • In a position of power over the woman

edited 2nd Nov '12 8:48:10 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
[up] Docile Asian Strong Whitey is just bland, and it removes the sexual/romantic point of the trope. Sure, people might get that from the description/context, but since the entire purpose of the page was to rename...

I still suggest Asian Girl Love White Man Long Time. Removes the dialogue of the original title, while being self-demonstrating (as the stereotypical speech pattern shows), and pretty much gets the point across well.

As for the definition, why does it need to be so laconic? The way it's written, it misses out on quite a bit of context.

edited 2nd Nov '12 9:01:53 AM by KingZeal

 349 shimaspawn, Fri, 2nd Nov '12 9:01:23 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Yeah, but the speech pattern really only shows up in parodies and the trope is more common than that.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 350 lu 127, Fri, 2nd Nov '12 9:02:23 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
That's very long for a title.
迷子の足音消えた
代わりに祈りの唄

Alternative Titles: Me Love You Long Time
28th Dec '12 10:43:47 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
At issue:
This trope is about unequal relationships between Asian women and white men, in which the latter hold the power. It is NOT about:
  • Prostitution (Ok, that is sometimes part of it but not enough to deserve mentioning in the name)
  • Any relationships between Asians and white men. Thus, please do not add politically correct options to the crowner
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