TV Tropes Org

Forums

Deadlock Clock: 16th Apr '12 11:59 PM
search forum titles
google site search
Total posts: [72]
1
 2 3

Schoolgirl Lesbians and Romantic Two Girl Friendship, take 2: Schoolgirl Lesbians get usage counts

As noted in the previous thread, Schoolgirl Lesbians is supposed to be about how various cultures treat lesbian relationships among young girls as harmless “practice” relationships for “real” heterosexual ones later. But its mostly just being used for lesbian schoolgirls, with all the fanservice implied. It was also noted last time that with Romantic Two-Girl Friendship, the original definition of Schoolgirl Lesbians was redundant.

So I propose we reformat Schoolgirl Lesbians into a trope about lesbian schoolgirls, noting both the fanservice implications and the cultural connection to Romantic Two-Girl Friendship. Thoughts?
Agreed, trope transplant for Schoolgirl Lesbians. Also, I have a concern regarding Romantic Two-Girl Friendship. Namely, it's largely a matter of subtext and open to interpretation. There was recently an edit war on a Negima page regarding the trope where the possibly subjective nature of the trope came up. I think the person who brought that up had a point: We either need a more concrete definition to avoid people shoehorning in two girls who happen to be friends, or the trope may be so subject to interpretation that it's YMMV.

It would appear that both tropes describe "S Class relationships". I'm inclined toward merging the two. We already have tropes for Girls Love and Queer Romance, do we not?

 4 shimaspawn, Thu, 26th Jan '12 11:51:15 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
The descriptions describe the same thing, but Schoolgirl Lesbians is being used for lesbian schoolgirls, which are their own trope. A merge wouldn't fix the misuse. It would make it worse.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 5 lu 127, Thu, 26th Jan '12 11:54:55 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I have trouble seeing the distinction between the two. Merging them seems to be the best solution. I also agree that Romantic Two-Girl Friendship should be YMMV. Most of the examples appear to be based on subtext.
迷子の足音消えた 代わりに祈りの唄
We don't have a trope for actual lesbian schoolgirls if we do a merge.

 8 Helter Skelter, Thu, 26th Jan '12 12:53:33 PM Relationship Status: Drift compatible
I think the difference is one is overt. Romantic Two-Girl Friendship isn't about overt lesbianism. It's about the time before girls start focusing so much on boys, when friendship is really emphasized (usually junior high/middle school). Since friendship takes precedence over romance, it tends to be that they are emphasized really strongly and powerfully, and almost appear to be romance. There is a strong cultural connection to it in Japan, where it almost is like romance, just a more "virginal" outlook on it. They are not actually in love or in a relationship, nor will they ever be, it's just emphasized in such a way that if the other were a boy, you'd assume this to be the case.

Schoolgirl Lesbians are about lesbians in school.

 9 lebrel, Thu, 26th Jan '12 1:04:15 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
My current opinion:
  • Class S (currently a redirect) should be a Useful Notes about the Class S genre of material.
  • Romantic Two-Girl Friendship should be renamed to something gender-neutral (because it has also applied to Romantic Two Boy Friendships, just less commonly), and be specifically about the old-fashioned idea that adolescent same-sex crushes, especially in a One Gender School, are a cute, harmless phase that the kids will grow out of, not '"really" homosexual. I don't think this is YMMV; it's quite common and explicitly conversed/stated in a lot of Victorian/early-20th-century stuff, both Japanese and Western.
  • Schoolgirl Lesbians I'm not sure we need: "teenage lesbian" doesn't seem sufficiently different from just "lesbian" to merit its own trope.

We could use a trope for the Distaff Counterpart of Yaoi Guys (I threw up a YKTTW for Token Gay Couple that would cover both, but it went nowhere). Everything else is Ship Tease or Homoerotic Subtext or Les Yay.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
[up] Agreed. Schoolgirl Lesbians either refers to the same thing as Romantic Two-Girl Friendship, or it refers to lesbians who happen to be in school. If it's the former, it's redundant. If it's the latter, it's far too inherent in the concept of lesbians to be its own trope. After all, the vast majority of lesbians go to school at some point in their lives.

I do agree that we need a distaff counterpart to Yaoi Guys. So, my suggestion: Remove Schoolgirl Lesbians, add a Yuri Girls trope.

 11 shimaspawn, Thu, 26th Jan '12 2:37:12 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Lesbian schoolgirls as a trope are different than lesbians who were in school at some point. There are all sorts of different media connotations to a relationship between girls actually in school and ones that aren't set in a school environment.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
But not every distinction is worth a trope. If it's actual lesbians (and not Romantic Two-Girl Friendship) I don't see a particularly significant difference. I don't suppose you'd mind elaborating?

Also, out of curiosity, would you argue that we need a Gay Schoolboys trope? If not, then why?

 13 Helter Skelter, Thu, 26th Jan '12 9:49:09 PM Relationship Status: Drift compatible
[up] Less cultural connotations, and less appearance in media. Schoolgirl Lesbians is a fetishized thing, drawing from Girl on Girl Is Hot. It's worth noting that I don't think Romantic Two-Girl Friendship draws from that at all. It's not supposed to be sexy, it's supposed to be wistful and endearing.

[up]Agreed, this is the distinction I see between the two treatments.
"You want to see how a human dies? At ramming speed." - Emily Wong.
Cure Candy
[up][up] Its both exactly the same... Due to Moe there is no difference between the two.
 16 Servbot, Fri, 27th Jan '12 2:54:03 PM Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
[up]We're talking about the same Moe loving Japanese otaku who, when given characters who are overt lesbians, respond with "why should I care?" and a lot of derision about lesbians and why they don't want lesbians in their Yuri, right?

Yeah, keep them split. Romantic Two-Girl Friendship in Japanese media had morphed into the Girl on Girl Is Hot version of Schoolgirl Lesbians, i.e., they're there for guys who still want to see girl on girl but would scream the loudest against LGBT rights.

As for why we should keep Schoolgirl Lesbians, they're the most common character in Girls Love manga. As in if you pick up a Girls Love magazine, the majority of stories will be about Schoolgirl Lesbians. They probably evolved from frustration over the Class S thing.

edited 27th Jan '12 3:08:51 PM by Servbot

 17 lebrel, Fri, 27th Jan '12 5:35:21 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
@Servbot: "As for why we should keep Schoolgirl Lesbians, they're the most common character in Yuri Genre manga."

I still don't think Schoolgirl Lesbians is different enough from Lesbians to be its own trope, if reduced to the Exactly What It Says on the Tin definition (which is how it's overwhelmingly used now). A huge proportion of Boys Love (possibly a majority) uses characters who are still in school, but there's no demand for a Schoolboy Gays trope. A vast quantity of shoujo uses characters who are still in school, but there's no demand for a Schoolkid Couple trope either. Unless we can make the trope something more specific than "lesbians, except teenage", I don't see the point.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
[up]I agree. Even worse is I've seem Schoolgirl Lesbians being misused for "lesbians in general, schoolgirl or not".

[up][up] Agreed. Categorizing common character archetypes is important, but separately categorizing every possible permutation of the same character archetype is not. The distinction between Schoolgirl Lesbians and your average run of the mill lesbians is not a significant distinction. It's like if Badass Longcoat were split into two tropes, one for the cowboy trenchcoat and one for the matrix-style trenchcoat. Sure, they're not identical, but they're similar enough to be covered by the same trope.

So, again, why don't we just add a Yuri Girls trope and fold Schoolgirl Lesbians into that?

Schoolgirl Lesbians appear in plenty of Western works about teenagers exploring their sexuality at high school. Lets not make this about what happens in Japanese media only. The page description should be rewritten to make it more general rather than focus purely on how this trope is used in Japanese works.

edited 27th Jan '12 11:48:09 PM by Falco

"You want to see how a human dies? At ramming speed." - Emily Wong.
 21 lebrel, Mon, 30th Jan '12 3:42:45 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
@Falco: I think you are thinking of Lesbian Until Graduation (or possibly Queer Romance). The trope of "high-school girls in a romantic/sexual relationship, usually in a work aimed at men and played for Girl on Girl Is Hot fanservice" is quite unusual in Western works.

edited 30th Jan '12 3:44:06 PM by lebrel

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 22 shimaspawn, Mon, 30th Jan '12 3:47:00 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
No, I think he's talking about the trope of Schoolgirls that are lesbians. Not the trope currently listed there. Lesbian schoolgirls are treated differently from adult lesbians even in Western works.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 23 lebrel, Mon, 30th Jan '12 3:53:45 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] So then what is this trope of "schoolgirls that are lesbians", that is not either "adolescent same-sex crushes are a harmless phase" or "high-school girls in a romantic/sexual relationship, played for fanservice"? You've said a couple of times that "lesbian schoolgirls" are another trope, but you haven't explained what this trope consists of, besides lesbians who are in school.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 24 shimaspawn, Mon, 30th Jan '12 3:57:23 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
It's generally a bit more innocent and the characters are treated as more feminine and still exploring their sexuality. They tend to have a Coming-Out Story and there is a lot less confidence there.

Compare adult lesbians which tend to be depicted in media as more Butch Lesbian confident and kind of masculine.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 25 lebrel, Mon, 30th Jan '12 4:04:11 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
So basically Young Adult Queer Romance? That's coming into its own as a genre/category recently, we might put up an index page if there's enough relevant works pages. Still not sure it's a trope, though; more like using generic Teen Romance tropes on gay characters.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

Page Action: Schoolgirl Lesbians
15th Apr '12 2:44:20 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Schoolgirl Lesbians and Romantic Two Girl Friendship are currently being used almost identically for young lesbian or yuri-style characters in anime/manga (and elsewhere).

Token Yuri Girls has been created for "yuri-style characters outside of Yuri Genre works" to clean some of the misuse.

What else should be done to fix these pages?

(Note: not all options are mutually exclusive, please use judgement.)
Total posts: 72
1
 2 3


TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy