I don't think the new name really works: Half Truth

Deadlock Clock: 10th Jan 2013 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [61]
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I'm the original launcher of the trope, but I'm not here to argue on the grounds of "I own it" (it's a wiki, that would be stupid), but rather to perhaps shed light on the original trope intent. The old name, Jedi Truth, and after that, From a Certain Point of View, conveyed a certain meaning I don't think Half Truth really covers.

I think the distinction is that a Half Truth is a PART truth, in that there in the made claim there is an element of definite, objective veracity. Such as from this Wikipedia example, "'You should not trust Peter with your children. I once saw him smack a child with his open hand.' In this example the statement could be true, but what if Peter was actually slapping the child on the back, because he was choking." In this case, the action stated actually happened in reality (hitting a child did occur), but the omission of information reverses the inferred meaning of the sentence.

Consider, on the other hand, the Trope Namer, when Obi-Wan said that Darth Vader murdered Luke's father. There is absolutely no true claim in that statement, there is no twisted meaning like in the "hitting a child" example. What instead it relies on is words that must be filtered through extremely generous interpretations, extremely flexible logic, and unique points of view to understand. In this case, a the claim (Darth Vader murdered Anakin) never literally happened at all, and it can only be rectified in a (quite generous) symbolic or metaphoric context.

The quote also makes sense AFTER you learn the true intent. Death is a very common metaphor for change, however, unless you're ALREADY operating the assumptions the speaker is making, it's Blatant Lies. I would say that all of these elements make it separate from a Half Truth.

To recap —

Half Truth — "He hit a child" (was saving the kids life) Is a statement that is FACTUALLY true, but if you know the information the speaker knows, it changes the connotation or meaning of the statement.

From a Certain Point of View (or whatever we want to call it) — As inspired by Obi-Wan's quote, it is a statement that is blatantly FALSE, but if you know the information the speaker knows, it makes certain metaphoric or symbolic sense.

(And this is why we don't launch tropes without YKTTW kids... to save hassles like this. Never making that mistake again.)
2 nrjxll6th Jan 2012 09:12:52 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
Trope Namers Do Not Define A Trope (seriously, that ought to be one of our preexisting messages). I'll go over the rest of your argument later, but "they did it this way in the Trope Namer, therefore that's how the trope should be" is not a valid argument.
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
The missing word in Obi-wan's statement was, "metaphorically".
The problem isn't that the name doesn't fully define the trope, it's that the name already has another meaning that is different from that of the trope.

Edit: We certainly have wiggle room about whether or not ALL of the nuances of Obi-Wan's statement are needed for the trope, it's just that Obi-Wan's statement (the trope inspirer) doesn't even FIT in the definition of Half Truth.

edited 7th Jan '12 9:11:16 AM by Jsor

5 DragonQuestZ7th Jan 2012 08:08:11 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
I was actually going to suggest splitting the trope this way, so I support. Half Truth for something that is true but lacks context, and From a Certain Point of View for any viewpoint or statement that is a parable passed off as the truth.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
6 Clarste7th Jan 2012 01:24:18 PM , Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
I believe I suggested splitting when the new name was originally imposed. I still support it.
7 billybobfred9th Jan 2012 03:58:41 PM from renamed to wingedcatgirl , Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
I can't find the actual thread, but I recall that splitting was the official decision, and the only reason it didn't happen was that nobody bothered to actually do it.
she her hers hOI!!! i'm tempe
I agree with the split; Half Truth doesn't quite describe the trope, and may cause confusion.

Also, a half truth and lie of omission are the same thing, right?

edited 9th Jan '12 4:41:10 PM by mimicimim

Could we just... not have Death anymore?
No, it isn't. Can be.

If I don't tell you who I am, and you call me the king of nowhere, then by not correcting you, I lie.
There should be a split just like there's a split between Literal Genie and Jackass Genie.
12 DragonQuestZ19th Jan 2012 10:28:08 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
I'm down with a split. Metaphorical Truth could work, but seems overly broad to me (could be confused with something like An Aesop that isn't literally true but is still "the truth"). Maybe Metaphorically True Lie or something?
14 DragonQuestZ20th Jan 2012 09:40:39 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
[up]Which trope would that name apply to?
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
The "true in spirit, but not in fact" one. Half Truth is fine for the "true in fact, but not in spirit" one.

edited 20th Jan '12 10:21:55 AM by NativeJovian

16 DragonQuestZ20th Jan 2012 10:33:08 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Thinking about it, the Star Wars line even seems like another trope, where people look at things in a certain way, and they see that is the truth.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
You mean when people believe their own lies?
18 DragonQuestZ20th Jan 2012 12:17:05 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Not quite there. Obi Wan saw Anakin's turn into Vader as basically his friend being murdered by that. Yes, the Retcon turned it into a metaphorical truth, but the on screen event was him seeing it that way, knowing it wasn't quite what actually happened, but might as well be. Revenge of the Sith tried to copy that form with Anakin saying he saw the Jedi as evil.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Could we just... not have Death anymore?

This isn't quite a lie, either.
I don't see how Obi-Wan's opinion prevents this from being an outright lie of omission. He specifically told Luke something that he knew wasn't the full story about his father. Even if, in his opinion, Darth Vader "murdered" Anakin Skywalker, the being that is Darth Vader was still once Anakin.
It wasn't a lie of omission. If he'd said "We lost Anakin Skywalker because of Darth Vader" or something like that, then that would be a lie of omission — it's technically true, but the implication is that Vader killed Anakin, not that Anakin became Vader. What he said is Darth Vader "betrayed and murdered" Anakin Skywalker, which is a lie when taken literally but true in a metaphorical sense (ie, That Man Is Dead).

A Half Truth is something that is true but misleading, and includes lies of omission. A Metaphorically True Lie is something that is literally false but true in spirit.

edited 20th Jan '12 2:50:32 PM by NativeJovian

22 DragonQuestZ20th Jan 2012 03:16:21 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
I still like True From A Certain Point Of View, because referring to metaphors here seems a bit broader.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
23 Pig_catapult23rd Jan 2012 11:28:49 PM , Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Can we possibly get a punctuated title so it's Metaphorical "Truth", with clarifying scarequotes?
Because underscores break everything: Working link to my Troper page
That might work. I could get behind it.
"Half Truth" just doesn't fit because it already has a meaning, so I too support a change.

Alternative Titles: Half Truth
31st Mar '12 2:28:48 PM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:

Total posts: 61
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