Public Christmass displays... are they constitutional, ethical?

Because, tropetown, everyone knows that Christians everywhere have priveledge they don't deserve. Even when it comes to innocuous holiday traditions.

More seriously, people are eager to tear down what they see as somehow oppressive. Basically, I just think it's "think of the children" wearing a different suit.

Baff, no. That is in no way fair to ask people to change traditions they've had for years without hurting anybody just because you don't like it. I'm going in the "suck it up" category with USAF here.

edited 22nd Dec '11 8:40:07 PM by AceofSpades

No, seriously, as far as I know, the tree is not a Christian symbol. Hell, up until relatively recently, Christian groups in the US were against the celebration of Christmas and considered it an un-Christian pagan holiday. Then it became a huge commercial thing and they realized that it would sink the economy to be against it, so they shifted to wanting it to be about Christ.

Essentially, you're just trying to do what the Christians of the early 20th Century tried to do: kill the celebration of Christmas and Christ's association with the holiday.

I am now known as Flyboy.

So Christmass isnt about Christianity... yes that joke has been repeated a lot lately.

But to say a Christmass tree is not a Christian symbols is silly. Besides the discussion extends to nativity scenes and crusifixes.

Then Christmass isnt a tradition?? That goes in total contradiction to what is saying (or was saying since he erased it).

There is some very powerful doublethink working on here.

edited 22nd Dec '11 8:48:37 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

Christmas as a tradition dates, if you're looking for Santa Clause in the US, to the '20s. Which is a... substantially long period, but the holiday itself is much older than that, of course.

edited 22nd Dec '11 8:49:13 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Wait, what? There is a vast gulf between Christianity and Nazism, especially in the terms of what those ideologies contain. Ideologies are not equal; an ideology can be bad, for example. Just as opinions are unequal, ideologies are, also. Our apologies for not being sufficiently homogeneous in our views, we'll get to work on that in future.

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:02:25 PM by AllanAssiduity

they are until any of them brakes the law (that is why nemesis is depicted blindfolded)

edited 22nd Dec '11 8:52:47 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

Oh my God please stop misspelling Christmas when you know better. It looks retarded.

Anyway, there's less and less nativity scenes in public places these days partially due to people just not wanting to deal with the controversy. In a way, making a big ass fuss until people give in is violating their freedom of speech. And also, putting up the tree in places like the State... whatever you said is by now a tradition, and it would be stupid to stop now because it's also a good part of the economy surviving. Again, just suck it the fuck up; it is not put there to offend anyone. It is put there to celebrate. And I am tired of people complaining about things while ignoring the generally good intent.

And.. USAF... uh, the tradition of celebrating and giving gifts has been around for a while. The tree thing existed in North Europe and other areas before being imported over here. I don't think there was any group particularly against Christmas so much as against celebrating it in a particular way. IE; with the trees and shit, and most of that has come with the rampant commercialization.

Hey!!! Dont insult retarded people! Most of them choose and know how to spell Christmass right, unlike me.

And yes... Christmass Trees placed inside State Capitols represent a huge amount of our nation´s GDP. Without them we would be doomed.

edited 22nd Dec '11 8:59:11 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

I stand corrected on the Christmas tree thing. Apparently some military organization out in Europe started the practice in the 1400s-1500s, and they had Christian influences.

Also, dammit, I can't find the article... wait... hold on, I might remember where it was from...

I am now known as Flyboy.

This sentence (fragment) is forever.

Just say bad. You mean bad. What you said is nonsense.

It's beautiful and so full of deep imagery that it doesn't surprise me to find that it has gone WAY over your head

Please do post it when you find it.

what do you mean?

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/skye-jethani/war-on-christmas_b_1152223.html

I was remembering wrong. He was around before, but he only became really popular in the early 20th Century.

I am now known as Flyboy.

No, they're not. If I hold a view that says "poor people deserve to be shot", that is not an equivalent view to, say, someone who doesn't think that. I would be doing nothing "wrong" by thinking that in the eyes of the law, but that does not make the view any less abhorrent. Do you mean Lady Justice? I know you do. The blindfold symbolises impartiality.

Wow, I'm stupid sometimes, sorry. The correction really is appreciated. I should really not post when I'm tired.

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:05:35 PM by AllanAssiduity

acording to the law. The law can not evaluate ideologies, it can only verify external acts. Or at least in the liberal sense, which is the same thing as imparciality thus the analogy of being blindfolded.

Also fun fact, lady justice is actually the God of Revenge. The more you know...

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:06:43 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

Yeah, Coca-Cola made him real popular. His punishing counterpart, Krangle or whatever, not so much.

But are we even on topic anymore?

Then, if that's the case, why should the law allow one ideology, and not another to be expressed in public?

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:06:40 PM by tropetown

please elaborate.

(note: I dont support the removal of religious symbols in the names of places or the coat of arms of cities, nor lady justice, or the serpents around the stick which represent medicine, because they are largely secular, or where instituted during a time when such exhibitions where legal, or rather not unconstitutional).

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:09:45 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

Well, you seem to be in support of religious free speech in general, which is fine, but it looks like you are saying that this free speech shouldn't apply to Christmas decorations in public. Or, have I been misreading your statements thus far?

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:12:10 PM by tropetown

Since a separation of church and state has been stablish, the goverment most abstaind from commenting on, or sponsoring religions.

Free Speach doesnt force the state to sponsor ideas. Its justs prohibits the state from interfeering in free speach in general. Removing religious displays from public property does not violate free speach because the state has no obligation to hold said displays in the premicies of federal and state buildings (which are different from public property).

On the other hand, if you want to take a fancy rethorical device, you cant take Robert Alexy neo-constitutionalism and argue that the principle of separation of chruch and state trumps over free speach when said speach comes in form of representations of religious rituals between the premises of public buildings.

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:18:44 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

No, just no. People like decorations. They should be allowed to have them, even in state buildings. Disallowing them denies free speech. And also, having the decorations doesn't mean they're sponsoring any particular religion. Just let people have their fucking trees.

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:17:18 PM by AceofSpades

Well, for court houses and state assemblies and the like, there probably shouldn't be anything but generic lights and trees (I postulate that trees are essentially secular at this point, though).

I fail to see why religious things (or atheist things) should be disallowed in squares and such, though.

I am now known as Flyboy.

Christmass tress are secular???

I invite you to ask a Jewish person or a Muslim person what they think on the matter, and weather they would put a Christmass tree in their house...

And I like rollerblades. If the states doesnt give me rollerblades thats an infrigment in my rigth to free locomotion.

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:20:33 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

As far as I know, most Americans—Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or otherwise—celebrate Christmas with a tree and everything, because it's an excuse to party and give each other stuff (and therefore get things in return).

I know my Hindu friend and his large, extended family all do...

I am now known as Flyboy.

I dont doubt they do... but I, persoanally most disagree, I dont think that is common. But that is my opinion. In my personal experience Ive never seen non chirstians set up christmass trees.

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:24:54 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

I do, speaking for myself. Actually I know a lot that do.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve