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Rename?: Dont Explain The Joke
Deadlock Clock: 11th Apr '12 11:59 PM
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Rename?: Dont Explain The Joke get usage counts

 1 Dragon Quest Z, Fri, 16th Dec '11 6:43:34 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
The trope keeps getting confused for giving context about the setup, which is actually okay for a joke, so people can understand some parts.

I'll look for misuse in a little bit. I just needed to get this thread up before an opening closed.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Don't Explain the Joke found in: 1602 articles.

Anyone want to guess how many of those have to do with the use of the trope in the work and how many are sinkholes for people that need to point out their own jokes?

...or sinkholed because actually the joke makes no sense unless you've read/watched a specific work.
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Could you give some bad examples? Outside the wiki, I've always heard "don't explain the joke" to mean "don't explain the punchline."

 5 Dragon Quest Z, Fri, 16th Dec '11 7:15:30 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Well I have to finishing cleaning up the "genre launch" wicks. Then I'll get to looking at the wicks here.

But if someone is willing to look for the wicks on this trope, I would be grateful.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 6 Dragon Quest Z, Sun, 18th Dec '11 7:59:08 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Okay, to start, I'm looking at the 23 wicks on the trope's redirects:

Now this is just the redirect wicks. More extensive wick checks will come later.

edited 18th Dec '11 7:59:22 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
How would Dont Explain The Punchline not have the same potential for misuse and abuse as Don't Explain the Joke already has? To me, I would be inclined to think that both names would lead to the same kind of problems.

edited 19th Dec '11 7:49:08 AM by SeanMurrayI

 8 Firebert, Mon, 19th Dec '11 9:25:14 AM from Somewhere in Illinois
That One Guy
I'd think it would at least cut down the misuse in that it would only deal with explaining the punchline rather than the set-up. Other problems, like it not being used in-universe, would obviously still apply.
I just killed the Staff of Authority one. Aside from being misuse, not everyone that uses fasces as a symbol are fascist.

I suspect that this trope needs cleanup on the same level as Understatement.

edited 19th Dec '11 9:30:24 AM by Auxdarastrix

 10 Dragon Quest Z, Mon, 19th Dec '11 10:10:57 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
[up][up][up]I see what you mean. A name should help make it clear that it's strictly in-universe.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 11 Dragon Quest Z, Tue, 20th Dec '11 10:06:46 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
How about Bob Explains The Punchline?
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 12 Firebert, Wed, 21st Dec '11 10:07:56 PM from Somewhere in Illinois
That One Guy
I like it.

edited 21st Dec '11 10:08:03 PM by Firebert

 13 Dragon Quest Z, Sat, 24th Dec '11 1:06:41 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Bump.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Despite the first paragraph of the description, most of the examples don't really seem to be about punchlines per se.

edited 24th Dec '11 6:02:21 PM by Prfnoff

 15 Dragon Quest Z, Sat, 24th Dec '11 6:23:17 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Yeah, this is going to need a lot of cleanup.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
even older skool
I would like to point out that the use of potholes for things other than in-universe examples really shouldn't be viewed as a strike against a trope name. When someone who, for instance, uses the word fanservice four times in a work's description decides to pothole to Department of Redundancy Department on the second one, Rule of Three on the third, and Overly Long Gag on the fourth, it does not mean that any of those tropes need a rename to discourage improper usage. It may mean that editing guidelines need to discourage overuse of allegedly witty potholes, but that's a rather separate issue.

As such, it seems to me that the practice of potholing to Don't Explain the Joke in order to point out an unnecessary explanation isn't really relevant to a discussion about the name's clarity.

Ontopic now, I think that misunderstanding the distinction between explaining a joke's setup and explaining why it's funny doesn't really become more clear upon renaming. Changing to Bob Explains The Punchline might discourage its use for meta-examples, but that's kind of separate from the issue described in the OP.

 17 Dragon Quest Z, Sun, 25th Dec '11 6:19:43 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
[up]"I would like to point out that the use of potholes for things other than in-universe examples really shouldn't be viewed as a strike against a trope name."

If something isn't In-Universe, then it's Not an Example, which is a bad thing.

"As such, it seems to me that the practice of potholing to Don't Explain the Joke in order to point out an unnecessary explanation isn't really relevant to a discussion about the name's clarity."

If the explanation is unnecessary, then it's misuse, which is relevant to a name's clarity. And again, a lot of these potholes are for things that aren't the punchline, so it's double misuse.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
even older skool
[up] From the description: 2. Explaining the joke with no prompting. This may be done as an attempt at Post Modernism, but it's usually done with jokes that wouldn't need any explaining.

This trope is about "unnecessary explanations", and their common use as a gag. pointing that out is only misuse if it's presented as something it's not. If a troper-created gag is presented as originating in a work, it's misuse. If it's presented as a troper-created gag, it's not.

Not an Example is only a bad thing when it's presented as an example. The potholed Running Gag that opens every Final Fantasy article is Not an Example of a running gag because it's not from any work, but it's not a bad thing because of that because it's not an instance of Square Peg Round Trope, which As You Know is the real target of that redirect.

 19 Spark 9, Sun, 25th Dec '11 3:26:17 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
I object to the rename. "Don't explain the joke" means not to ruin a joke by telling its good parts, it doesn't mean explaining that one word that nobody heard of. We aim for the common meaning of a term, not for the technically-correct-but-nobody-uses-it-that-way meaning.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 20 Dragon Quest Z, Mon, 26th Dec '11 11:19:58 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
If nobody uses it that way, then your argument is invalid, since you cannot stop misuse that way. This wiki is about telling people about tropes, and information they misunderstand is against that mission.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
If any rename is called for, it should be to something like Explaining The Joke. Please see Naming a Trope.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
 22 Dragon Quest Z, Mon, 26th Dec '11 12:00:25 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Again, the misuse is people thinking any part of the trope being explained. So a new name actually does need "punchline" in the name, not "joke". The latter goes against clarity, as it makes a trope seem broader than it is.

Plus the reason I like Bob Explains The Punchline is that is makes it unambiguous that it's a character doing this, thus helping curb further misuse by those that don't realize this is In-Universe.

And on that note, should I change my sig or not, as this trope is potholed within? I know this is a forum, and not a trope page. So would that count as a troper pothole or as a legitimate use?
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 23 Firebert, Mon, 26th Dec '11 12:24:40 PM from Somewhere in Illinois
That One Guy
Explaining The Punchline sounds good to me as well.
 24 Dragon Quest Z, Mon, 26th Dec '11 1:06:49 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Well I'd still prefer some tweaking, but it could still work (as in if we don'g get loads of potholes after the rename cleanup).
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 25 Madrugada, Mon, 26th Dec '11 5:24:54 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I don't see why we need to have two different tropes for "killing the joke by explaining the punchline" and "killing the joke by explaining some part of the setup". And frankly, I think that will lead to more misuse, not less, since it will still be used as a troper in-joke, plus it will mean that any example has to be properly sorted to the correct side of a fairly fuzzy line.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Page Action: Dont Explain The Joke
6th Jan '12 10:01:20 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
What to do with Dont Explain The Joke, as it's both a pothole magnet, and suffers misuse from those that think any information given about a joke is explaining it, when the trope is actually explaining what the punchline means.
Total posts: 64
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