Could people who know the U.S. Military please help confirm/deny?:

Total posts: [64]
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scratching at .8, just hopin'
A Telegraph story on rape in the U.S. Military
A female soldier in Iraq is more likely to be attacked by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire
WTF?
2 BlueNinja012th Dec 2011 09:17:21 AM from My Favorite Spot on the Citadel , Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Sailing thebig blue sea
Given the exceedingly low death rate, even in a "war zone", the title seems like a good candidate for Lies Damn Lies And Statistics.

However, sexual assault is a problem in the military, and the Navy IMX has done a major job to push for better help for victims, better reporting procedures, and better awareness of questionable behavior.

Last year 3,158 sexual crimes were reported within the US military. Of those cases, only 529 reached a court room, and only 104 convictions were made,
So, ~17% of crimes reported went to trial. How does that stack up to the civilian world?
Tropers are amongst the most civil, intelligent and toughtful people I've had the pleasure of talking to online. - Gutstheberserker
3 Cganale12th Dec 2011 03:22:47 PM from The Black Shroud , Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
A Cat with a Stick
Yeah, it's pretty much true. That's why they cram all that sexual assault response/prevention training down our throats, and make scapegoats out of men.
"I'll back that statement with my life." /splat
4 USAF71312th Dec 2011 03:30:24 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
@Blue Ninja,

That's appalling.

@OP,

Well... possibly. I think it'd be more because there's a low death rate, but any appreciable level of rape in the United States Military is a disgrace to be stamped out with extreme prejudice, not just looked at as "meh, it happens."

Soldiers dying, I can understand. That's their job. It's sad and regrettable, but it's not unexpected. But rape? That's not acceptable in any military that values any kind of respectable principles.
I am now known as Flyboy.
5 BlueNinja012th Dec 2011 04:08:21 PM from My Favorite Spot on the Citadel , Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Sailing thebig blue sea
and make scapegoats out of men. - Cganale
I'm curious what you're basing the "scapegoat" part on?

That's appalling. - USAF
Yes, yes it is.

any appreciable level of rape in the United States Military is a disgrace to be stamped out with extreme prejudice, not just looked at as "meh, it happens." - USAF
Any appreciable level of rape anywhere is a disgrace, and yet it still happens. I really am curious how the going-to-trial percentage stacks up in comparison to the civilian world. Another point brought up in the comments* is that the percentage of rapes in the military is comparable to the percentage of rapes in college, and both are filled with young horny guys* .
Tropers are amongst the most civil, intelligent and toughtful people I've had the pleasure of talking to online. - Gutstheberserker
6 Inhopelessguy12th Dec 2011 04:12:02 PM from Birmingham Ctl, UK , Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
The Great Pillowhead
...

Huh, how weird. I was reading this exact article, in the exact print edition. It sounds terrible.

Also, that's the Guardian. The Telegraph is the opposite side to the political spectrum.

edited 12th Dec '11 4:12:41 PM by Inhopelessguy

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7 USAF71312th Dec 2011 04:14:31 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
Yes, rape is horrible anywhere, but we have a lot more power to stamp it out in American institutions than worldwide, unfortunately, and thus it's all the worse that we haven't.

And, according to the article linked, there's something like a 1-in-6 rate of women who are actually raped, approximately, in the civilian world, and a 1-in-3 rate in the military world. That's fucking ridiculous.

Between this shit and Dover methinks there are a lot of mid-level commanding officers that need their careers on a platter in front of the Justice Department...
I am now known as Flyboy.
8 Inhopelessguy12th Dec 2011 04:16:02 PM from Birmingham Ctl, UK , Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
The Great Pillowhead
What I don't get is why they've kept it so secret?

Surely such things should be brought between a civilian court, and not a military one?
Waiting with bated

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breath.
9 USAF71312th Dec 2011 04:19:05 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
Military personnel against military personnel? Fuck no, this is a military crime. Keep them away from the spineless civvie jurors and let the bastards take a short, collared fall.
I am now known as Flyboy.
Prince of Dorne
Except the problem seems to be exactly that this doesn't happen.
Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken.

Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
11 Enthryn12th Dec 2011 04:33:58 PM from Earth , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
It should definitely be tried in civilian courts. The military command structure is too prone to abuse of power and cover-ups. Those so-called "spineless" civilian juries have, in other countries, proven much more effective at prosecuting crimes in the military. Sexual assault is a criminal matter, not a matter of military discipline, and it should be handled through the usual criminal courts.
Prendre le bien, le mal et sans trier, accepter
Sans couvrir tes yeux, tout regarder.
12 MajorTom12th Dec 2011 05:07:25 PM , Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
WTF?

Welcome to the truth (so far) of every military on Earth. No it is not something to be proud of.
"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
13 Barkey12th Dec 2011 05:28:47 PM from Bunker 051 , Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War Profiteer
A female soldier in Iraq is more likely to be attacked by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire

Well consider this statistic, AFAIK we've only ever lost one female to enemy action that wasn't bombardment by mortar or rocket attack, and that was A 1 C Jacobson.

So yes, the statistic is probably true, but in the US Military women can't do the jobs that put them on the front lines and in the worst of harms way.(With the exception of a small few, like mine)

In my experience doing military Law Enforcement, I've found that very few women bring allegations forth about being raped or assaulted, and of those about half of them are false.

Now, do I think more rapes are occurring than are getting reported? Yes. I think the major problem is women coming forward and speaking to the authorities about it. My organization can't do a damn thing about stuff we don't know about.

However, and this is just with the specific groups that I've associated with during my military career, I think the whole "RAPE IS AN EPIDEMIC AND 3 OF EVERY 6 FEMALES WILL BE RAPED IN THE MILITARY!" is complete and utter horseshit. I'm not some sergeant major who's been around since Panama or anything like that, but I sure as hell haven't seen a lot of sexual assault allegations with any real evidence in my career. A few, but not many.

edited 12th Dec '11 5:33:31 PM by Barkey

The AR-15 is responsible for 95% of all deaths each year. The rest of the deaths are from obesity and drone strikes.
14 MarkVonLewis12th Dec 2011 05:52:29 PM from Somewhere in Time , Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
KCCO
And chances are, legit rapes would be dealt with via people beating the shit outta the rapist. That'd be my guess. And a court martial.

As for it going to the civilian courts, hell no. Court martial the rapist and ship the motherfucker off to Leavenworth then BCD the jackass.

edited 12th Dec '11 5:53:08 PM by MarkVonLewis

"Skeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir,"
15 BlueNinja012th Dec 2011 05:57:18 PM from My Favorite Spot on the Citadel , Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Sailing thebig blue sea
Sexual assault is a criminal matter, not a matter of military discipline, and it should be handled through the usual criminal courts. - Enthryn
So are theft, regular assault, and drug use, and yet all of these crimes, when committed by service members, are handled by "military discipline" with no apparent issues from the outside.
Tropers are amongst the most civil, intelligent and toughtful people I've had the pleasure of talking to online. - Gutstheberserker
16 Joesolo12th Dec 2011 06:12:00 PM from Wouldn't you like to know... , Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
[up] They try to give the soldiers some slack(too much sometimes). Rape should be punished harshly, as should regular assualt. Hurting your own men dosn't help anyone but the Taliban.
17 MarkVonLewis12th Dec 2011 06:44:33 PM from Somewhere in Time , Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
KCCO
To my knowledge rape is one of those crimes that gets you outright kicked out of the service with a dishonorable discharge which on your resume is equivalent to a felony conviction in terms of looking bad, I think. And the rapist gets sent to Leavenworth, I'm sure.

From what I know, it is dealt with harshly.

edited 12th Dec '11 6:45:37 PM by MarkVonLewis

"Skeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir,"
18 MajorTom12th Dec 2011 06:54:41 PM , Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
^ It's one of the harsher crimes in the UCMJ.
"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
19 USAF71312th Dec 2011 07:09:57 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
This isn't the jackboot of some Third World hellhole tinpot dictatorship, this is the military of the United States of America.

Fuck this "dishonorable discharge and jail" shit, these people should be expunged from the records and executed, period. Unacceptable
I am now known as Flyboy.
Long Live the King
Fuck this "dishonorable discharge and jail" shit, these people should be expunged from the records and executed, period. Unacceptable

I'll agree with that... But only if we can execute, or at the very least detain without a trial, Americans who are suspected of Terrorism... Unless you're thinking we should execute all rapists... Then I'd be more on board.

A Dishonorable discharge essentially means that one can only work at a local Ma & Pop store. No national chain is going to accept one. A dishonorable discharge is worse than the standard felony from any state...
21 USAF71312th Dec 2011 07:21:28 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
I do think rapists should, generally, bite the bullet. I usually prefer to try terrorists before I advocate for execution, though; depends on the context.
I am now known as Flyboy.
22 MarkVonLewis12th Dec 2011 07:28:40 PM from Somewhere in Time , Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
KCCO
According to pages on wikipedia (not the most reliable source, I know, but) rape is punishable by death according to the UCMJ.

I'd say that's a harsher punishment that what civilian courts can muster up. In practice there hasn't been a military execution since '61, but it is possible.

edited 12th Dec '11 7:29:37 PM by MarkVonLewis

"Skeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir,"
23 Enthryn12th Dec 2011 07:31:08 PM from Earth , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
[up][up][up] I hope you're not seriously suggesting that US citizens be executed or detained on mere suspicion of terrorism. Or do you disagree with a certain document that says:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

edited 12th Dec '11 7:33:19 PM by Enthryn

Prendre le bien, le mal et sans trier, accepter
Sans couvrir tes yeux, tout regarder.
24 USAF71312th Dec 2011 07:37:47 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
@Mark,

With this kind of shit going on? It's a damn shame we haven't had an execution in that long, if shit heads are taking a piss all over the honor of the US Military like this.

What a load of horseshit.
I am now known as Flyboy.
25 Barkey12th Dec 2011 07:40:29 PM from Bunker 051 , Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War Profiteer
^^

Off-topic

But yeah, every rape case I've been involved with where the assaulter was found to be guilty of his crime is still sitting in Leavenworth, for what it's worth. And they have a miserable life of poor job prospects ahead of them. They receive a far worse punishment than civilians found guilty do.

To be honest, I'd rather face the firing squad than a dishonorable discharge. That'd be taking the most important part of my life and cutting it out like a tumor, I'd be so damn dishonored I'd rather just die.

The problem here is twofold: On the one hand you have the investigative process. Proving a rape is very hard, if not impossible, and nobody wants to convict someone of rape(especially in the military, with the heinous punishment we give soldiers actually convicted of it) without absolute evidence in the form of DNA or some other type of evidence that cannot be disproved.

That ties into the second problem, which is a common problem in the civilian world: Reporting rates. If the victims don't come forward and report these assaults, or they wait a long period of time before they do report them, all chances of such incontrovertible evidence are dust in the wind. All the convictions I've seen have been a result of a female being raped, and almost immediately going to the IG, JAG, Military Police, Military Investigative Office, Chaplains Office, or one of our numerous anonymous third party organizations we run sexual assault reporting through, and then promptly letting a doctor examine them with a rape kit. Now I'm not saying it's a soldiers fault if she is raped and doesn't report it, simply that it really binds the hands of the people out for justice afterwards. If we don't know, we can't investigate, and if you wait too long before reporting it, we can't get evidence. In both instances, there is no conviction. This is the biggest problem with rape cases in both the civilian world and the military world. We're actually better at solving our rape cases than the civilian world by virtue of the fact that we have easy access to all military members, and need no consent to access their DNA, as we already have the DNA of every service member on file.

Many won't believe me, but trust me here, it isn't the military justice system that is at fault here, it's just that certain circumstances make it impossible to solve the case. Please don't form the opinion that the military doesn't take this issue seriously, they hammer it home in the form of classroom training and presentations until your eyes start to bleed, it's something we're continuously reminded to be aware of.

edited 12th Dec '11 7:51:55 PM by Barkey

The AR-15 is responsible for 95% of all deaths each year. The rest of the deaths are from obesity and drone strikes.

Total posts: 64
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