Not so; it's perfectly reasonable to point out the implied sexism in a setting which features violence against women frequently and graphically and violence against men much less so. And people are more or less wired to have a Double Standard here, in the belief that violence against women, and sexual violence in particular, is particularly bad above and beyond problems with violence in general.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
I was almost going to agree with alethiophile, but then I got to this:
And people are more or less wired to have a Double Standard here, in the belief that violence against women, and sexual violence in particular, is particularly bad above and beyond problems with violence in general.I can't think of a non-offensive way to explain the logic behind this statement.
That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
This is just the ev-bio behind instinctive gender conceptions, which far too many people are incapable of reasoning about without becoming irrational. Briefly: In pursuit of the survival of the community, female lives are more important than male, because female investment in reproduction is greater than male. Because of this, people's evolved instinctive reactions to violence against women are stronger than their reactions to violence against men. If you have is-ought confusion about this, please take it elsewhere.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
It's easy, mmkay?
Maybe this is just a rationalization, but I tend to treat females better than males because I understand that others are sexist against them, so I'm trying to compensate. ...also because being nice to males is just being nice, but being nice to females increases odds of reproduction. Call me disgusting, but if I didn't say that I wouldn't be fully honest about my motivations. But the first one's important too.
edited 10th Dec '11 11:03:57 PM by PDown
At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
To be honest, I'm actually more sympathetic towards the second motivation then the first. There's not much we can do (yet) about our evolution, but anything that even slightly smacks of Positive Discrimination is going to set me on edge. This is another derail, though - might be best to move it to another thread.
"Saying violence towards women is sexist implies violence towards men is okay, which is sexist." But as no one here or on the linked website actually said that, we can put this tedious derail to rest.
|And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?|
Joining the Team.doc
Except the aforementioned "derail" resulted from someone mentioning a story about why violence against women is bad. If that's not sexist against males, then why isn't the story about violence being bad?
Teens dress as Batman to catch pedophiles; cops not impressed
I changed accounts.
Why don't you make a new thread for it, then?
I am now known as Flyboy.
No; my post was about those works that purport to speak out against violence while clearly fetishizing it.
|And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?|
I probably do it, only with males. So I am guilty, in that regards.
So does the "Violence against women" thing ok aslong as it is done to women by women? Because I am currently writing one of those right now. Might scrap the project though.
"If there is a hole then it's a man's job to thrust into it" - Ryoma from New Getter Robo
Regardless of evolutionary bias, the idea that it is somehow "okay" to show violence against women when it's by other women, but not when it's by men, is both stupid and sexist - as is, in fact, the idea that it's wrong to show violence against women at all. Note that I refer just to violence - actually fetishizing or glorifying violence against women (or men), as the "story" describes, is something I'd consider bad no matter what. Again, though, this is wildly off-topic.
Huh. I guess I haven't written enough short stories, since I don't remember writing anything that matches what's on this list. Honestly, I can sympathize with the editors who compiled this list to a certain degree- pretty much everything on there is either very much fanfiction amateur hour or else story premises old-school enough to have seen countless retreads since the thirties and forties. Highly Visible Ninja EDIT- er, no offense intended to those that have written any of that stuff.
edited 12th Dec '11 12:44:28 AM by TeChameleon
I've done the following ones:
- 2. Creative person is having trouble creating.
- These were in the same story, and the e one is inverted by him being the muse's captive rather than the other way around... she's draining his life force by feeding on his creative energy.
- 7. Protagonist is a bad person. (We don't object to this in a story; we merely object to it being the main point of the plot.)
- 9. A "surprise" twist ending occurs. (Note that we do like endings that we didn't expect, as long as they derive naturally from character action. But note, too, that we've seen a lot of twist endings, and we find most of them to be pretty predictable, even the ones not on this list.)
- I'm currently writing a story about medieval soldiers who secede from their country and try to form their own kingdom. The twist? None of it is real: They're Larpers.
- Also, in a couple of my stories Everyone Dies... however, it's obvious from the get-go that those are Cosmic Horror stories, so nobody should be particularly surprised by those instances.
- 14. White protagonist is given wise and mystical advice by Holy Simple Native Folk.
- Possibly, anyway. Do Elves count?
- 16. An alien observes and comments on the peculiar habits of humans, for allegedly comic effect.
- Once again, do Elves count? I do this kind of thing with Alira all the time.
- People whose politics are different from the author's are shown to be stupid, insane, or evil, usually through satire, sarcasm, stereotyping, and wild exaggeration.
- Yes, I've done (well, am doing) both versions. In the short story Frustration, censorship of violent video games removes the primary stress-relief outlet and causes teens to start shooting real people instead; in the novel Freedom's Children, X-Men meets V for Vendetta (do I really need to elaborate further?).
- 24. Someone comes up with a great medical or technological breakthrough, but it turns out that it has unforeseen world-devastating consequences. (Again, this is a perfectly good plot element, but we're not thrilled when it's the whole point of the story.)
- Side Effects, though it's more an anti-capitalism book than an anti-science book.
- 25. It's immediately obvious to the reader that a mysterious character is from the future, but the other characters (usually including the protagonist) can't figure it out.
- Jake, before he appears in his natural timeframe in Freedom's Children, appears in one of my other stories that takes place in modern times.
- 26. Someone takes revenge for the wrongs done to them.
- Too many times to list.
- 29. Author showcases their premise of what the afterlife is like; there's little or no story, other than demonstrating that premise.
- The "little or no story" part is averted, but I do have a Religious Horror one where Hell is actually cold rather than hot (in keeping with my personal temperature preferences, since I hate the cold) and Michael Vick is shown being torn apart and eaten by dogs, reappearing intact, and then repeating the process again.
- I also have one for Literotica called Wet Dreams May Cum, which plays the "little or no story" part pretty straight.
- 30. Brutal violence against women is depicted in loving detail, often in a story that's ostensibly about violence against women being bad.
- But in my defense, the violence against the men responsible for these acts is both more brutal and more lovingly detailed.
- 31. Evil people hook the protagonist on an addictive substance and then start raising the price, ruining the protagonist's life.
- 36. Sentient toys, much like the ones from Toy Story, interact with each other.
- 37. In a comedic/satirical story, vampires and/or other supernatural creatures come out publicly and demand (and/or get) the vote and other rights, but people are prejudiced against them.
- Vampires are revealed to the world against their will at the end of the Mythology 101 Cycle, but adapt to it very fast (their agent has been putting out pro-vampire propaganda in preparation to break The Masquerade, it just happened sooner than expected). Due to Canon Welding, the existence of vampires is publicly known in every story that takes place after that one.
edited 12th Dec '11 7:22:44 AM by EnemyMayan
Jesus saves. Gretzky steals, he scores!
Creative person is having trouble creating. Writer has writer's block. Painter can't seem to paint anything good. Sculptor can't seem to sculpt anything good. Creative person's work is reviled by critics who don't understand how brilliant it is. Creative person meets a muse (either one of the nine classical Muses or a more individual muse) and interacts with them, usually by keeping them captive. Visitor to alien planet ignores information about local rules, inadvertantly violates them, is punished. New diplomat arrives on alien planet, ignores anthropologist's attempts to explain local rules, is punished. Weird things happen, but it turns out they're not real. In the end, it turns out it was all a dream. In the end, it turns out it was all in virtual reality. In the end, it turns out the protagonist is insane. In the end, it turns out the protagonist is writing a novel and the events we've seen are part of the novel. An A.I. gets loose on the Net, but the author doesn't have a clear concept of what it means for software to be "loose on the Net." (For example, the computer it was on may not be connected to the Net.) Technology and/or modern life turn out to be soulless. Office life turns out to be soul-deadening, literally or metaphorically. All technology is shown to be soulless; in contrast, anything "natural" is by definition good. For example, living in a weather-controlled environment is bad, because it's artificial, while dying of pneumonia is good, because it's natural. In the future, all learning is soulless and electronic, until kid is exposed to ancient wisdom in the form of a book. In the future, everything is soulless and electronic, until protagonist (usually a kid) is exposed to ancient wisdom in the form of a wise old person who's lived a non-electronic life. Protagonist is a bad person. (We don't object to this in a story; we merely object to it being the main point of the plot.) Bad person is told they'll get the reward that they "deserve," which ends up being something bad. Terrorists (especially Osama bin Laden) discover that horrible things happen to them in the afterlife (or otherwise get their comeuppance). Protagonist is portrayed as really awful, but that portrayal is merely a setup for the ending, in which they see the error of their ways and are redeemed. (But reading about the awfulness is so awful that we never get to the end to see the redemption.) A place is described, with no plot or characters. A "surprise" twist ending occurs. (Note that we do like endings that we didn't expect, as long as they derive naturally from character action. But note, too, that we've seen a lot of twist endings, and we find most of them to be pretty predictable, even the ones not on this list.) The characters' actions are described in a way meant to fool the reader into thinking they're humans, but in the end it turns out they're not humans, as would have been obvious to anyone looking at them. Creatures are described as "vermin" or "pests" or "monsters," but in the end it turns out they're humans. The author conceals some essential piece of information from the reader that would be obvious if the reader were present at the scene, and then suddenly reveals that information at the end of the story. (This can be done well, but rarely is.) Person is floating in a formless void; in the end, they're born. Person uses time travel to achieve some particular result, but in the end something unexpected happens that thwarts their plan. The main point of the story is for the author to metaphorically tell the reader, "Ha, ha, I tricked you! You thought one thing was going on, but it was really something else! You sure are dumb!" A mysteriously-named Event is about to happen ("Today was the day Jimmy would have to report for The Procedure"), but the nature of the Event isn't revealed until the end of the story, when it turns out to involve death or other unpleasantness. (Several classic sf stories use this approach, which is one reason we're tired of seeing it. Another reason is that we can usually guess the twist well ahead of time, which makes the mysteriousness annoying.) In the future, an official government permit is required in order to do some particular ordinary thing, but the specific thing a permit is required for isn't (usually) revealed until the end of the story. Characters speculate (usually jokingly): "What if X were true of the universe?" (For example: "What if the universe is a simulation?") At the end, something happens that implies that X is true. t's immediately obvious to the reader that a mysterious character is from the future, but the other characters (usually including the protagonist) can't figure it out. Someone takes revenge for the wrongs done to them. Protagonist is put through heavy-handed humiliation after humiliation, and takes it meekly, until the end when he or she murders someone. The narrator and/or male characters in the story are bewildered about women, believing them to conform to any of the standard stereotypes about women: that they're mysterious, wacky, confusing, unpredictable, changeable, temptresses, etc. Strange and mysterious things keep happening. And keep happening. And keep happening. For over half the story. Relentlessly. Without even a hint of explanation. The protagonist is surrounded by people who know the explanation but refuse to give it. Author showcases their premise of what the afterlife is like; there's little or no story, other than demonstrating that premise. Hell and Heaven are run like businesses. The afterlife is really monotonous and dull. The afterlife is a bureaucracy. The afterlife is nothingness. The afterlife reunites you with your loved ones. Brutal violence against women is depicted in loving detail, often in a story that's ostensibly about violence against women being bad. Man is forced by circumstances or magic to rape a woman even though he really doesn't want to, honest. The main reason for the main female character to be in the story, and to be female, is so that she can be raped. Evil people hook the protagonist on an addictive substance and then start raising the price, ruining the protagonist's life. In a comedic/satirical story, vampires and/or other supernatural creatures come out publicly and demand (and/or get) the vote and other rights, but people are prejudiced against them.You know I see these plots all the time, I was think about those. O_O
"The secret of Evangelion is that they took super robot pilots and reversed their genders."
The Last Duke
I personally think that saying all stories that use these ideas are bad is kind of snobbish, but then I read their description and realize they don't think that either, and they simply get too many submissions like these and want something different... So, in short, I'll post after all. I haven't written that much, but I've done 15 (as part of my homebrew setting) and I've always wanted to do a variation of 21 (essentially A and B at the same time).
edited 13th Dec '11 10:26:55 AM by Umbramatic
The system doesn't know you right now, so no post button for you.
You need to Get Known to get one of those.
You need to Get Known to get one of those.