Is retaining Culture better than allowing people to suffer?

We have to be fair. Also, our hunter gatherers have been in contact with the mainstream since the middle ages. And really, if we don't educate them unscrupulous coastal dwellers will really screw them.

If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?

And we should give those leaders the power to decide for every single individual in their tribes? I think not. Even if the tribe at large rejects such prorgams, every single individual inside the tribe must be given the chance for a better and technologically more advanced life. I don't think it's fair we should condemn those that would be willing to leave to stone age brutery just because of accident of birth.

Tribe, culture and yes, also state, doesn't matter. The individual does.

edited 7th Dec '11 7:45:50 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

That's fair enough. When I said that, I was thinking of the Sentinelese, who live in total isolation and remain out of contact with the rest of the world all the way to today. They don't want or need whatever we have to offer them.

edited 7th Dec '11 7:46:13 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

As I said, we cannot make them take our help. Offer it to their leaders, strongly suggest they consult their people, but ultimately it must be their choice.

It doesn't matter how helpful you think you're being or how good you think your intentions are: if they don't want you there and you insist anyhow, you are in the wrong, period.

Although I think missionaries can be useful. They just need... adult supervision.

@anne,

Thank you for telling off Deboss, but I've found that it's simpler to ignore his nonsense.

I am now known as Flyboy.

What's useful about coercing people to abandon their religion in favor of yours?

---

But I simply must have the last word! I subsist on last words.

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

We don't know the culture of the people nor do we know the individuals enough to know if the influence we will have is a positive or a negative.

My concern is if you praise the individual you can destroy the people by dividing them and fracturing their community, and in turn, their language, their faith, their ethos.

That's precious in their own right no matter how "stone age" it may seem to us.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

@anne,

Oh, not for the purposes of preaching, but hey, they want to help? I won't stop them. Give them a supervisor who will cut the stupid shit and they're another pair of hands. If they can't handle it and quit, you never needed them to begin with.

And,

I am now known as Flyboy.

If enough people leave it that this happens then apparently, no it's not worth keeping, its own people have decided so.

After all, all I propose is that you give individual people the choice and chance for another live. They need not take it. But the chance must be there, and the choice must be everybody's own. Otherwise, you're de facto forcing them into their culture, and what for? 'Culture' is an abstract concept - and people must always be put before abstract concepts!

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

There's nothing wrong about giving aid and other resources to people who need it, it's just that doing it with the purpose of eventually converting them is completely unnecessary.

If they need aid, aid them for the sake of aid, don't aid for the sake of conversion.

edited 7th Dec '11 8:01:02 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

Octo - that's your opinion. I'll just have to disagree with you.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

@anne,

Agreed, but then again, for the kind of hellish issues some African countries have, I doubt turning down help is a good idea. It simply needs to be made very clear that if they're going to do preaching shit they can do it individually and not in their capacity as volunteers. This must also be enforced.

Like I said, if they can't accept this, then you never needed their "help" to begin with.

I am now known as Flyboy.

Which however does man your position is de facto to force people in miserable lifestyles, for the sake of some abstract good...

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

and thus was the first to develop such values. We call them "Western" values because they then aggressively expanded and dropped them off artificially in other areas without the necessary technological development to back them up, thus creating a backlash towards them

These dates back to pre-indutsrial times, actually.

Western (though rule of law was contemprous of the Mongolians as well) ideas of common law and rule of law, democracy, and constution have spread across the world. And don't claim "they aren't Western". They started in Athens and were fully realized by the Magna Carta.

edited 7th Dec '11 8:12:09 PM by Erock

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.

You did not just draw a continuity from Athens to medieval England. Tell me you did not. Because it's utter nonsense!

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

How do we know that their lives are miserable? Just because their lives may not be a cushioned as ours doesn't mean that they are miserable.

How do we know introducing them to our culture won't break them as individuals as well as a culture? Can they handle the transition or would it be too much for them? Would they even be happy or could they develop some psychological or emotional trauma? What about biological health? Would exposure to our food, our cities, etc make them sick or hurt them physically in some way?

Could they ever really function in a society like ours or would we have to baby step them in like the movie "The Village"? (Without the fake monster, but I hope my point is clear.)

There are too many variables that need to be considered. And to me, the authority of the tribe is trusted for a reason. They know their people. And hopefully they can understand enough to know if this is a good thing or not.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

It's not hard whatsoever.

Classical Athens influences Rome, Rome spreads Greco-Roman law and ideas across Europe, includng Britian. Britian retains some of these and eventually develops common law.

From there, Americans inhreit the British tradition, and write the first constitution.

edited 7th Dec '11 8:15:31 PM by Erock

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.

No, indeed. We cannot decide that for them - which is why, you know, I said they should decide for themselves, and each individual for him or herself!

All possible, of course, but as you say - how can we know? Now it seems to me it's you who wants to make the decisions for them. If they (and as said, "they" meaning individuals) want to take that risk, then that's their decision.

That assumes an inherently benevolent leadership, though. In most pre-industrial societies, though, might makes right, so one can rather assume the contrary. Still, by all means, let the leaders decide for the tribe as a whole - but then give single people the chance to decide between tribe and social mainstream.

There is no real continuity between Rome and medieval Europe. Sure, there were influences, but no culture lives in a vacuum. Europe as we know it, the attitudes, the nations, everything, was formed in the Great Migration - and not as the stupid saying goes in Jerusalem, Athens and Rome. The Magna Carta was based on Germanic attitudes about armed free men - it was not all influenced by Greek ideas on democracy. Hell most people signing the Carta probably didn't even know those Greek ideas!

edited 7th Dec '11 8:18:26 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Octo, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm more than willing to trust the authority of the tribe. Obviously if there is some significant reason to assume it's not a trustworthy decision, there is some latitude there. That's why I said send in scholars and scientists, not emotional but well intentioned aid workers.

But in general, if I had to make a blanket rule, yeah. I'd trust the authority. You don't have to. And that's fine.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

The Magna Carta was based on Germanic attitudes about armed free men - it was not all influenced by Greek ideas on democracy. Hell most people signing the Carta probably didn't even know those Greek ideas!

No.

Just... no. I'm sorry, but that sounds very some regional bias there.

The Britsh drew from Roman law (ideas such as habues corpus) that was brought to England. This Roman law in turn was greatly influenced by Greek ideas. Hell, the Magna Carta is a Latin phrase! I learned this in Canadian law class, as our system is based in British law.

edited 7th Dec '11 8:25:51 PM by Erock

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.

Regional? I said Germanic, not German. Learn the difference. And of course the Magna Carta is a latin phrase! It was written in latin, the official language of the time! But using dead languages as for ceremonial reasons is not exactly something limited to Europe. That alone does not create continuity.

The idea and attitudes behind the Magna Carta were in any case not influenced by Greek democracy at all. That's a ridicolous continuity myth.

Trust is nice and fine, but it's also an issue of power. Authorities shoudl not have so much power over individuals!

edited 7th Dec '11 8:28:46 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

And we uncover a personal issue of Octo's.

You don't think that our own government does that to us as well? Imagine how much our officials keep quiet from us because they think it would upset the greater good of our daily lives? They could be right, or they could be wrong. But that's why we try and elect leaders who share our values so that they will run the government and make decisions for us we are okay with.

I don't see how any society can function regardless of their advancement without some trust in their government and some rule of majority. If you can't trust your government, over throw them, elect new ones, or just leave the group. Even a tribesman who doesn't agree with his leader can just start walking away in a direction long enough and find some other people to interact with.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

I don't think one can presume to speak about how every individual Sentinelese person feels about it, but yes, trying to modernize Sentinelese society from outside would be a foolish idea.

But in most cases, minimizing suffering is worth making changes to culture (which is why I disapprove of the Brazilian government's rather extreme hands-off approach towards hunter-gatherer societies, which seems to be based on preserving things for anthropologists to study at the expense of the indigenous people themselves).

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.

Personal issue? What the hell? Really, now, what? I would rather say you have a personal issue with individualism!

I'm sure the governments hide way too much from the people. Which is why I do think transparency needs to be rammed down their throats (while at the same time allowing the government as few data about individuals as possible). Simply assuming whatever the government does is for some "greater good" is not only naive, it's also sickingly subservant. It's not a democratic attitude, as democracy is the "rule of the people".

But it's irrelevant if the government is good or bad. It should not have the power to deny such basic kinds of choices to people. Nobody should have such power.

edited 7th Dec '11 8:40:25 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

F*ck the tribe, I want to thrive

Erock: I thought you were into pagan Germanics! You should know this stuff.

Octo re Magna Carta: You are my hero for that bit alone.

edited 7th Dec '11 8:46:45 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.