I've noticed some decay with this trope, which is supposed to be a fairly specific trope, but I've seen uses bringing it alarmingly close to What Measure Is a Mook?. You can see it in stuff like the picture and the second quote (which is also on What Measure Is a Mook?, IIRC). I'm pretty sure the culprit is this part of the description:
A minor version of this would have the Hero pondering the fact that we're all somebody's kid, and wondering how the families of the mooks he's offed feel. To make it more powerful, the hero could encounter said loved ones and start a nice long guilt trip.Does this have anything to do with the rest of the trope? Should it be cut? Should the entire thing perhaps be a little less specific?
I'm inclined to think that the problem lies more with What Measure Is a Mook? then this. I still have trouble understanding exactly what that trope is supposed to be.
Bumping for more thoughts, and to help clear out some of these threads?
One more bump before I go to bed post-New Year's celebration. Thoughts on which trope is the "problem" here?
LoserI wonder if part of the confusion with Even Mooks Have Loved Ones is related to how the trope description is phrased almost exclusively in terms of the mook's relationship with his or her boss rather than between the mook and the hero as the name and picture might suggest. If people want to keep that angle to the Even Mooks Have Loved Ones trope, then I think a rename is in order. Right now, at least from what I can tell, the current name suggests Brawl in the Family quote meaning a lot more than the intended meaning of the trope. Another option is to broaden the Even Mooks Have Loved Ones trope to include the paragraph that Leaper mentioned and to make What Measure Is a Mook? exclusively about mook/boss double standards.
edited 1st Jan '12 11:39:51 AM by LouieW
"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
I still don't understand what What Measure Is a Mook? is supposed to be in the first place.
I think the original intent of What Measure Is a Mook? was "the hero can get all principled when it comes to the villain, but mooks can be killed left and right", but a combination of the title in and of itself and specifically the snowclone with other tropes has led to it being broadened to other things.
I'll throw in a big example, for me. In the Tim Burton Batman film, the climax has Batman fighting his way up the clock. Batman, who has a strict no-killing policy, shoves one of the mooks off the stairs. That specific scene highlights how Batman has been using possibly lethal force against the joker's mooks for the whole movie. Bullets and bombs used frequently. But when the joker might fall, he tries to save him. In other words, "what measure is a", is about if the measured character counts as alive when it comes to a "no killing" policy for The Hero. Even Mooks Have Loved Ones seems more related to the trope Even Evil Has Loved Ones. These two tropes have characters shown to be not completely irredeemable.
Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
Excuse the bump, while I explain my thoughts on this still-in-the-TRS thread. This trope, in description, is basically "Big Bad does/plans something that hurts people known by his underlings.", however, the name has instead fostered a collection of examples (and even one of the page quotes!) that are more a mix of Even Evil Has Loved Ones and What Measure Is a Mook?. The page needs to be cleaned up and, more importantly, renamed. So my suggestions kind of look like this: Examples involving the existence known sentimental or emotional attachments from villains (mook or otherwise) go to Even Evil Has Loved Ones (if not already present). Examples involving mooks having theoretical families/love interests/etc., go to What Measure Is a Mook. This trope is renamed to something more in line with the intended description. It occurs to me while researching for this post that we don't actually appear to have a trope for the more generalized "Villain does something, his mooks resent him (silently or publicly) for it", so perhaps adapting this trope into that one would simultaneously broaden it and reduce misuse.
I honestly think that we need to fix What Measure Is a Mook? before we do anything about this. I like the suggestion above of redefining it to be closer to its original meaning of mook/boss double standards - it's much more coherent then the current definition, which appears to be "mooks get killed".
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