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The Christianity Thread:

Three-Puppet Saluter
Before we spun off from the OWS thread, we were discussing the homosexuality thing. My two cents: wasn't that all Paul, without Jesus putting in a word about it? I could very well be mistaken, though.
Hail Martin Septim!
You forget Christians listen to both Old Testament and New Testament because one cannot do without the other.
 
Tired and Irritiated
There is a Christians thread in Troper Covens, you know.
...Goddamnit, why can't I get normal health questions like the rest of my colleagues? - Pyrite, upon being asked about the meaning of poop.
Three-Puppet Saluter
Well, the New Testament pretty much invalidates everything in Leviticus other than the Ten Commandments, so...

Anyway, this is a debate thread. I've never been to Troper Covens, but I don't think it would allow this kind of debate from the sound of it.

edited 24th Oct '11 4:01:09 PM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
 5 Lawyerdude, Mon, 24th Oct '11 4:02:19 PM from my secret moon base
Citizen
Paul and the Old Testament, which says that homosexuals are to be killed (Leviticus 20:13).

Despite the fact that Jesus is not recorded as saying anything about it, most Christian churches oppose homosexuals, and consider their orientation to be sinful. In addition, they generally believe that homosexuality is a choice, not an innate characteristic. They also often support efforts to "change" their orientation through "therapy", despite the overwhelming opposition in the medical and psychological communities.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Three-Puppet Saluter
Not to mention the community of people who like their computers and would rather not live in a hackneyed alternate history.

Well, that's people who go one step beyond "homosexuals can be reformed" - because there are self-described former homosexuals, and I'll take them at their word - and advocate said reform in all circumstances no matter what. But seriously, that mentality drove one of my greatest heroes to suicide. You don't want to mention the concept in my physical presence.
Hail Martin Septim!
Tired and Irritiated
Well, all right.

Hmm...in The Bible, is sodomy and homosexuality the same thing?
...Goddamnit, why can't I get normal health questions like the rest of my colleagues? - Pyrite, upon being asked about the meaning of poop.
NCC - 1701
I get why this thread was started. But it's a little too "broad" considering the reason it spun off.

If someone wants to discuss homosexuality and Christian views, they can have at it.

If someone wanted to start a thread on the reasons, some legitimate, for the staunch anti-Christian sentiment that's more prevalent nowadays, I can discuss that; in addition to discussing why it's not totally founded.

Other than that, I don't come to TV Tropes so I can bash the "poor heathens" or Bible-thump.

That is all.
It was an honor
 9 Jeysie, Mon, 24th Oct '11 4:31:36 PM from Western Massachusetts
Diva of Virtual Death
Many Christians here in MA don't think homosexuality is immoral, and I admit I can't take claims it is immoral seriously when there is actually very little meaningful difference between gay and straight couples in terms of feelings or behavior.

And, most of the anti-Christian sentiment is from being tired of those Christians who bash non-Christians or use Christianity as a justification for bigoted, hateful, or clueless behavior. I don't have an issue with Christians who behave respectably, use their brains, and accept that other people's beliefs (or lack thereof) are just as valid.
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
You forget Christians listen to both Old Testament and New Testament because one cannot do without the other.

The Old Testament is essentially a source of sociopolitical pick-and-choose for the various branches and offshoots of Christianity. People tend to use the 1% that supports their dogma, and discard the rest — particularly the passages that don't mesh with the prevailing modern sensibilities of the Christian majority.

As for the OP — since most of the authorship of the New Testament is up to debate (most historians refer to it as a "developed canon" that potentially spans centuries), it's rather difficult to conclude whose words or beliefs are ultimately responsible for the passages regarding homosexuality.

 11 Rottweiler, Mon, 24th Oct '11 4:57:52 PM from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
[up][up] "I can't take claims it is immoral seriously when there is actually very little meaningful difference between gay and straight couples in terms of feelings or behavior."

The huge difference in behavior is that sexual intercourse has reproduction as its telos. As far as I know, homosexual acts don't have a telos.

"I don't have an issue with Christians who behave respectably, use their brains, and accept that other people's beliefs (or lack thereof) are just as valid."

Just as valid, eh?

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
 12 Jeysie, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:06:20 PM from Western Massachusetts
Diva of Virtual Death
The huge difference in behavior is that sexual intercourse has reproduction as its telos. As far as I know, homosexual acts don't have a telos.
Plenty of straight couples can't or choose not to have children, so no, that's not a very big difference at all, actually. And all sexual behavior has the additional purpose of emotional bonding, so that is the, uh, telos of sexual acts when they are performed by homosexuals. (There is no such thing as "homosexual acts" in the sense of acts only homosexuals perform.)
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
 13 Rottweiler, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:12:16 PM from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
[up] "Plenty of straight couples can't or choose not to have children, "

"Choosing not to" is seen as a willful rebellion against teleology. It's a sin, literally "missing the mark."

Are sex acts necessary for two people of the same sex to emotionally bond?
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
 14 The Earth Sheep, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:19:15 PM from a Pasture hexagon
Christmas Sheep
Just want to point this out, the Catholic church, which is far and away the largest Christian church, doesn't believe homosexuality to be a choice. The official position of the Vatican, as far as I remember, is that homosexuals just have a different temptation than other people. I mean to say, some people have problems with Gambling, some with Envy, some with Wrath, some with homosexuality. That doesn't mean those people only have that temptation, of course, it's just the one they struggle with most. Also, when God makes some one homosexual, He's informing them that he wants them to be chaste throughout life. The Vatican also allows homosexuals to be priests, so long as they aren't practicing, if I remember correctly.

Just wanted to make that clear.
Still Sheepin'
 15 Lawyerdude, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:23:53 PM from my secret moon base
Citizen
People only "struggle" with homosexuality because of prejudice. If they didn't think it was wrong, then there wouldn't be a problem.

Comparing homosexuality to things like gambling addiction or alcoholism is ridiculous.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
 16 Rottweiler, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:25:15 PM from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
[up] Why?
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Because, unlike a gambling addiction or alcoholism, homosexuality harms nobody. Of course, there are doctrinal reasons why the Church will never accept it, but that's a different story.

 18 joeyjojo, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:27:24 PM from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Happy Oktoberfest!
are sex acts necessary for two people of the same sex to emotionally bond?

Are sex acts necessary for two of any sex to bond emotionally? I don't know, if you want kids however it's a good idea.

edited 24th Oct '11 5:48:58 PM by joeyjojo

Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy -Gandolf In Harry Potter
 19 Rottweiler, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:30:31 PM from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
[up][up] What about diseases spread by anal sex?
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
 20 The Earth Sheep, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:36:44 PM from a Pasture hexagon
Christmas Sheep
[up][up][up] If it's a sin, it harms both parties. Christians consider it a sin. And so, Christians try to stop people from harming themselves in this manner.

Oh, and 15: Same argument. To a Christian, it's sin, and so a Christian homosexual would think it was wrong, regardless of prejudice. And there are countless Christian homosexuals who choose to remain chaste.

edited 24th Oct '11 5:38:10 PM by TheEarthSheep

Still Sheepin'
Well, a) straight people can have anal sex as well, and b) ST Ds spread through oral, vaginal, or anal intercourse, so these diseases are obviously not limited to homosexuals.

 22 Rottweiler, Mon, 24th Oct '11 5:49:59 PM from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
[up] It's also wrong when straight people do it.

Sex is right when it fulfills its end.
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
 23 joeyjojo, Mon, 24th Oct '11 6:02:55 PM from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Happy Oktoberfest!
So sex for reasons other then procreation is wrong then rott?
Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy -Gandolf In Harry Potter
 24 Enthryn, Mon, 24th Oct '11 6:15:04 PM from Earth Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Pleasure is a sufficient end, provided it doesn't harm anyone. How does safe sex between consenting adults harm anyone?

Since I expect someone will appeal to "sin" as the harm, I pose the same question there: Why is sin as defined by Christianity necessarily harmful?
Prendre le bien, le mal et sans trier, accepter
Sans couvrir tes yeux, tout regarder.
 25 The Earth Sheep, Mon, 24th Oct '11 6:21:06 PM from a Pasture hexagon
Christmas Sheep
[up] It's harmful from the perspective of a Christian, and if I'm not mistaken, we're debating from the perspective of Christians, what with this being called 'The Christianity Thread'.
Still Sheepin'
Total posts: 875
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