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Dragon Writer... because Everything's Worse with Snowclones, that's why! I'm currently analyzing this for confusion with Fourth Wall and its other snowclones.... The following is the canonical ptitle range.
Little or no context
Okay, so out of the classic ptitle range I can draw three conclusions:
edited 16th Oct '11 11:21:10 AM by Stratadrake
AXTUCE MUN AXTE INCAL
I have to question exactly what this trope is supposed to be in the first place.It's when a work uses paratext to convey information about the story. For example, in comics, altering the shape or background color of the Speech Bubbles to indicate the speaker's mood. Or in a story with more than one narrator, using different typefaces for each narrator.
This trope has nothing to do with the Fourth Wall at all. Snowclone suckage at its finest.
PIKA! ^_^Pre-existing thread
3DS FC: 2981-6375-5798
Dragon WriterOh, oops. Hmm ... almost two months ago? Forever in Web time. And nobody took time for a misuse check back then. The initial argument was:
posted by SomeName
Looking at the Painting The Fourth Wall Western Animation section, actual examples seem to the be the exception, rather than the rule. Most of what is listed is Breaking the Fourth Wall, Fourth Wall Psych, or just gags that involve the fourth wall in some way. (e.g. Fake advertisements.) The trope itself means that some aspect of the medium itself is being used to communicate some concept or story element to the viewer, but the common usage seems to use it to mean "weird fourth wall-y stuff". Some of the problem seems to stem from the title. I've seen a pretty substantial number of examples of characters "literally" Painting the Fourth Wall, which almost inevitably ends up actually being an example of Breaking the Fourth Wall, since it generally means that the character starts to interact with the screen in some way.
edited 16th Oct '11 12:23:38 PM by Stratadrake
The Warrior's Way example is about the music playing in the background being the sound of High-Pressure Blood coming out from your throat when one of the Sad Flute ninjas cuts you, hence the name "Sad Flute".
I can't argue with the misuse, but I have never had a problem with connecting the title to the definition. The The Order of the Stick page image previously there helped a lot...now ugh, I have no idea what the current picture is supposed to show. I would say that the description could also use some clean up. I would prefer that plus an example cleanup to happen before attempting to rename - it is a Fourth Wall trope and it is kinda like writing on said fourth wall, or at least hanging decorations on it.
edited 16th Nov '11 11:24:31 PM by Elle
Dragon WriterI disagree about it being strictly related to the Fourth Wall — Breaking the Fourth Wall in particular. The misuse claim is about people treating it like "Playing With The Fourth Wall", which is missing the point entirely, and the article has had at least two occasions of page images describing the wrong trope.
I went through the article with an axe, cutting away a great many inappropriate examples and no doubt some of the appropriate ones, and rewrote the description to a simplified but clearer form.
^You didn't axe enough. I'm still seeing plenty of examples that don't belong anywhere near the page. Also, can we get a change to the thread title? This trope's name isn't a snowclone. At all.
Belief or disbelief rests with you.
Plus EP x 3 for thread title.
Dragon Writer@Petrie: The trope title is derived from Breaking the Fourth Wall (compare: Tapping On The Fourth Wall, Leaning on the Fourth Wall), so it is in fact a snowclone by our usage of the term.
edited 18th Nov '11 8:10:21 AM by Stratadrake
Dragon WriterBumpity. I recently noticed the F-Zero page is misusing it when one character's ending describes them smashing the screen out of frustration. That aside, nobody's posted any new, proper checks. Can I? For starters, this is the complete 'A' range.
Misuse more easily fixed than saidIn other words, I fixed them already. Still counts as misuse though.
Misuse not so easily fixed
Can't tell what's going on here
Nonstandard medium conventions that convey metatext
Our totals across this range are:
edited 8th Jan '12 12:05:08 PM by Stratadrake
I would support a rename.
Dragon WriterLet's try the 'E' range, same category, Alex.
First, the misuse:
Cited as misuse and easily corrected
Other suspected misuse
Creative use of metatext:
Now for the totals.
edited 8th Jan '12 1:31:04 PM by Stratadrake
Oh hey. I'm the guy who YKTTW'd this trope. That went smoothly, with (I recall) everone agreeing that it was a thing, but by the time it was due to be launched, I had been left incapacitated by an extraordinarily stupid turn of events. The trope page was built by committee, and left with a half-baked description that among other problems lacked a "see also"/"compare & contrast" section that would've pointed casual tropers in the right directions. By the time I'd recovered, a backlock of other issues and lingering stupidity kept me from writing a new description. I guess I didn't really think much of it until this thread was started, when I panicked and put in a bare-bones but much clearer and functional description. I think that swapping a defective description for a good or even working one should cause much of the problem to subside, and that this makes such a difference that we can't fairly judge the trope's performance on past grounds. However, I also acknowledge that the mis-use that's already happened is a large part of the problem and won't go that easily, which is why I'm ready to review every last related page, and fix them when necessary. I also object to the claim that the title of this trope runs afoul of the things listed on the Everything's Worse with Snowclones page. Unfortunately I desperately need to go to bed, too, so please don't do anything major for a day or so while I get my rest and my thoughts in order and see if I can't work on things further.
We needs a new name for this. Any ideas?
The Final ECW ChampionI think the name is fine. Visual cues about the story the characters themselves aren't aware of. Death speaking in all caps in Disc world right? The unsound affect off mouser's bombs. Psychic characters having color or italics in Marvel comics right? I don't think the name is wrong, I think tropers are just misusing it. Seems more like a special efforts case than a repair shop one. The fourth wall generally is something not known to the guys in story so it makes sense to be in the title.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Rhymes with "Protracted."
This is in desperate need of a rename and a cleanup. Crowner here
edited 18th Feb '12 2:27:14 PM by Catbert
The problem I've always had with the name is that it sounds just like a lesser version of Breaking the Fourth Wall to me, just like Leaning on the Fourth Wall. Based on that wick check, I'd say that I'm not alone. From my point of view "conveying things about the story through elements that aren't actually in the story" doesn't have much to do with the fourth wall. You may as well call subtitles and speech bubbles "writing on the forth wall." I can't think of a name right now, but there's got to be a better one that what it has now.
I think we need to add in the description that this is NOT something that happens TO the 4th wall. I think the bad examples are stemming from the fact that the current title is "VERB-ing the 4th wall", and so people automatically associate it with something that happens to the 4th wall. Dunno about what to rename it, if anything, though when i think about it, "Painting the 4th wall" does conjure up images of someone doing exactly that, and nothing as subtle as a character making a throw-away reference to the way text is formatted. ..."The Writing on the 4th Wall", perhaps? The "THE" would be important, as to disassociate the trope with the act of something happening TO the wall. Otherwise we have the same problem, and people go looking for instances where someone literally writes on the screen. Or maybe "Noticing the Paint on the 4th Wall"? Long names, I know, but the more simple a title, the more broad it becomes in the minds of those who see it, and the more ripe it is for misuse.
We need a name that has nothing at all to do with wall, fourth or otherwise, because this is not about Fourth Wall.
edited 18th Feb '12 4:32:26 PM by Catbert
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