Merge Detective Drama and BasicMysteryClasses into : Mystery Fiction

Both of these are "genre tropes" that describe the same thing: The Mystery Genre. I don't really see any reason to have both of them. I propose combining the two tropes into a singe page.

Detective Drama (aka Detective Fiction) has a description that is a relic from when we only did TV shows, however over time it has accumulated lots of non-TV examples. There is nothing wrong with that.

However, somewhere along the lines someone added Mystery Fiction. The definition is functionally identical to Detective Drama, save for the fact that Detective Drama still retains the obsolete specification that it is about a "show". For some strange reason, Mystery Fiction has a timeline of mystery fiction with lists a number of works that are all also Detective Fiction, however there is no example section. Also, at one point the two pages didn't even reference each other, making me think that whoever created Mystery Fiction didn't even know we already have Detective Drama. I added the cross references a few months ago.

Locked Room Mystery has no links to Detective Drama or Mystery Fiction. It also isn't mentioned in Basic Mystery Classes, or Detective Drama, and it is used incorrectly on Mystery Fiction.

What we need is a single Mystery Genre page that combines the best of the Detective Drama and the current Mystery Fiction pages. We can also merge in Basic Mystery Classes as the basis of a list of types of mysteries on the main genre page . Locked Room Mystery and other specific types of mysteries should remain separate subgenre subtropes, however they should be listed on the Mystery Genre page and should link back to the Mystery Genre page.

edited 7th Nov '11 7:29:17 PM by Auxdarastrix

No, what we need is the supertrope Mystery Genre to encompass both the Detective Drama and the Basic Mystery Classes. Not all mysteries fit the format of a Detective Drama. (And I don't mean simply "aren't a tv show".

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Mystery Fiction could and should be considered a supertrope to Detective Drama, but as it is right now it has a definition that is practically the same. How would you propose defining it so that it is more expansive than Detective Drama? Also, I don't see why Basic Mystery Classes needs to listed seperatly from Mystery Fiction instead of just moving the list over to Mystery Fiction. The current stub is getting very little use anyway.

edited 16th Oct '11 3:17:03 PM by Auxdarastrix

Okay, trying again: As these are two are currently defined, they are both about detectives of various types solving various types mysteries.

Further note that the "This page" that Mystery Fiction links in order to define Mystery Fiction uses the term Detective Fiction.

I'm willing to accept the possiblity that Detective Fiction is a distinct type of Mystery Fiction.

However, someone needs to

• Put forth a defintion of Mystery Fiction that is broader than Detective Fiction,
• Provide some examples of what specific features make Detective Fiction distinct from Mystery Fiction
• Provide examples of work that are Mystery Fiction but not Detective Fiction
• Provide exampales of subgenres of Mystery Fiction that are not Detective Fiction.

If no one can define the difference between these two, they need to be merged.

Crowner here

---

Mystery Fiction

A genre which often includes a detective (amateur, PI or regular cop) involved in a mystery. The term "mystery fiction" is used mainly to apply to stories where the focus is on the puzzle and how the detective solves it, mostly with logic and ratiocination. Often overlaps with Crime and Punishment Series.

This page shows a nice list of mystery fiction rules, mainly to distinguish it from police procedurals and hardboiled noir. However, even these tropes can be subverted (see: Agatha Christie).

Now excuse me while I smoke my pipe and wear my deerstalker cap.

---

Detective Fiction

A show that follows the cases of a central detective character as he pursues a mystery, as embodied in a criminal who almost always a murderer, from initial investigation to arrest. The character is usually a police detective or private detective, but can also be a civilian with acute sleuthing skills.

There are two varieties of Detective Drama, which correspond to the two basic types of mystery: closed and open. In a "closed" mystery, the viewer is as in the dark as the detective (and maybe moreso), and only learns the answer to the mystery when the detective reveals it. In an "open" mystery (Reverse Whodunnit), the viewer has an omniscient view of the plot and knows the solution to the mystery; the entertainment value comes from watching the detective unravel it.

edited 18th Oct '11 9:39:17 AM by Auxdarastrix

The distinctions seems clear to me; Detective Drama stars a detective or has one in the main cast. The latter doesn't. Scooby Doo for instance has no detective in its regular cast but no one can argue that its not a mystery series.

Hypothetical distinction

1. Detective Drama Detective Dave is an adult (or works with one) and solves murders and kidnappings. A 'grown up' atmosphere and circumstances, so to speak.

2. Non-Detective mystery. Dave is a child (child, teen etc) and solves 'crimes' like who eat the last cookie, or is the old abandoned house at the end of the street haunted. The stakes are smaller, the atmosphere is more....kidish.

Except, as written right now, Mystery Fiction is about a detective. So, like I've been saying, if we were to expand Mystery Fiction so that it a supertrope of Detective Fiction instead of the two articles being a pointless duplication, someone needs to come up with a comprehensive redefinition.

Also, the Kid Detective is still a detective even of only of the Amateur Sleuth variety, and plenty of those stories still fall under Detective Fiction. They've also been known (in fiction) to solve serious stories crimes like murder and kidnapping.

edited 18th Oct '11 6:52:58 PM by Auxdarastrix

World Cat, for example, simply defines mystery fiction as: Used for novels and stories dealing with the detection and solution of crime.

About.com gives it as: Mystery is a genre of fiction in which a detective, either an amateur or a professional, solves a crime or a series of crimes. Because detective stories rely on logic, supernatural elements rarely come into play. The detective may be a private investigator, a policeman, an elderly widow, or a young girl, but he or she generally has nothing material to gain from solving the crime. Subgenres include the cozy and the hard-boiled detective story. Also Known As: detective novel

This dictionary gives: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mystery+novel

• Noun 1. mystery novel - novel in which the reader is challenged to solve a puzzle before the detective explains it at the end
• Noun 1. detective novel - novel in which the reader is challenged to solve a puzzle before the detective explains it at the end

And http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mystery+novel mystery novel: novel in which the reader is challenged to solve a puzzle before the detective explains it at the end [syn: detective novel]

Another website gives this: "Mystery novels revolve around the investigation of a crime, almost always murder, by some form of detective." Note the similarity to our definition of Detective Fiction. It then goes on to define the subgenres of mystery fiction by the variety of detective.

Manhattan Mysteries says "What is mystery fiction?. Is a term that is used as a synonym for crime fiction or detective fiction. It is basically a short story or a novel in which a detective or other professional investigates and solves a mystery of a crime."

Scholastic.com gives us Mystery The Basic Definition • A subgenre of narrative fiction; often thought of as a detective story. • Usually involves a mysterious death or a crime to be solved.

Going beyond novels we look at Mystery Film which "focuses on the efforts of the detective, private investigator or amateur sleuth to solve the mysterious circumstances of a crime by means of clues, investigation, and clever deduction."

edited 18th Oct '11 8:08:59 PM by Auxdarastrix

Adding on the my last post, I would conclude from my attempt to find a clearly defined distinction that there isn't one in common use. Pretty much all the sources I found use the terms as synonyms. Some sources might use only the term Detective Fiction but give it the exact same defintions and subgenres as Mystery Fiction. All the sources I could find that define Mystery Fiction do not divide it by whether or not there is a detective/investigator, or the seriousness of the crimes, but instead divide the genre by the type of detective (Amateur Sleuth, Police Detective, Private Investigator, etc).

Some sources use the term or phrase "Mystery and detective fiction" but fail to make a distinction between the two, instead using them interchangably.

This website is typical of such use

Mystery and detective fiction comprises a literature of questions. Who done it, of course, is the classic question. There's also what was done*? How was it done? Why was it done? An even more fundamental question, though, is this: what is a mystery?

Like many seemingly simple questions, this one is remarkably difficult to answer. Every mystery reader would probably answer it differently. We can agree, however, that all mystery and detective stories involve a breach in the social order, followed by an attempt to repair that breach and restore order. The breach usually involves a crime, although it doesn't have to. It could as easily be a marital crisis or the political intrigue behind a university promotion or artistic jealousy.

Beyond that, the field is wide open. That diversity is one of its strengths. We have maiden aunts solving murders over cups of tea, and we have high-tech forensic investigators poring over strands of carpet fiber in shiny laboratories. We have wise-cracking, hard-boiled private detectives lurking in alleys, and we have earnest police investigators traversing the political minefields of City Hall. We have medieval herbalists, pre-war Egyptologists and the wives of Victorian police officers. We have everything but a pirate with an eye patch, a peg leg and a parrot on his shoulder. And it all somehow fits within the genre.

There's no universal classification of the sub-categories within mystery fiction. Any attempt to impose order on the genre ultimately collapses under the weight of arcane arguments, like medieval debates on the number of angels who could dance on the head of a pin. For discussion purposes, we'll divide the genre into six loose categories: 1) private detective stories, 2) legal thrillers, 3) cozy mysteries, 4) police procedurals, 5) historical novels and that classic catch-all 6) miscellaneous.

edited 19th Oct '11 5:13:14 AM by Auxdarastrix

Bumping to trying to get more votes and input. Given the minimal response, it is almost enough to make me think I could have done whatever I wanted with these tropes and no one would have noticed. No wonder our mystery tropes are so poorly described and organized. Almost no one cares.

We do in fact have a relatively small user base that's interested in Mysteries that aren't Harry Dresden or the newer police procedurals on TV. Unfortunately.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I care that we have good pages about stuff that isn't just the latest troper fad, and I'm very grateful to Auxdarastrix for taking on the work. I'm just not knowledgeable enough about mystery fiction to verify the quality of that work or provide any help.

edited 26th Oct '11 1:08:08 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird

Is it time to start discussing how to divide the genres?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I still maintain that given the fact that the terms are used interchangably and synonymously throughout the world, a single article on Mystery And Detective Fiction would be the best way of approaching this. However, the crowner is not trending in that direction.

So yes, we do need to come up with a defintion of Mystery Fiction is is broader than "A genre which often includes a detective (amateur, PI or regular cop) involved in, well, a mystery."

Because right now the only real difference in the definitions are that one includes a detective and the other often includes a detective.

However, both are, at heart, about a person figuring out a mystery, and whether or not the person figuring out the mystery technically has the title of detective or not, the Amateur Sleuth, Kid Detective etc tends to be play the same general type of role even if they don't have the job title. Indeed, Detective Fiction says it includes the amateur in addition to the professional investigator.

So how do we fix the definition of Mystery Fiction?

1. Wiki doesn't give us more help. Indeed, it seems like it may of have the source of our problems here.

• Mystery fiction is a loosely-defined term. It is often used as a synonym for detective fiction or crime fiction— in other words a novel or short story in which a detective (either professional or amateur) investigates and solves a crime mystery

1. It would seem that wiki has had the same discussion on the idea that having seperate terms for these articles is a needless duplication that we are having now. Nothing came of it, neither a fix or a merge.

2. Knowledge Rush also treats the terms as interchangable

• Mystery fiction: A branch of crime fiction, detective fiction is the fictional genre centered around an investigation by a detective, usually in the form of the investigation of a murder.

1. This might work better as our model

• mystery or mystery story, literary genre in which the cause (or causes) of a mysterious happening, often a crime, is gradually revealed by the hero or heroine; this is accomplished through a mixture of intelligence, ingenuity, the logical interpretation of evidence, and sometimes sheer luck.
• mystery: a story, film, etc., which arouses suspense and curiosity because of facts concealed

edited 26th Oct '11 9:30:31 AM by Auxdarastrix

I'm looking at the last definition you gave; mystery does not require crime, it just requires a "how did they?" Problem, right?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Others sources, it is worth pointing out, list Mystery Fiction as a subgenre of Detective Fiction, some sources say Detective Ficion is a subgenre of Mystery Ficiton, and others make the absurd claim that the two are entirely seperate and that Mystery Fiction always excludes a detective. Yet I think we would have a hard time saying that Sherlock Holmes is not Mystery Fiction by common usage of the term.

There also appears to be a complication in British vs. American usage, based on some things I've seen. Apparently UK publishers exclusivly use the term Detective Fiction.

So, any distinction we settle on between the two will be in contridiction with one of the many distinctions that are commonly used just on the websites that I've found.

Looks like we aren't the first ones to be perplexed by the mystery of definitions

• is detective fiction one of subgenres of mystery fiction? or is detective fiction is another term of mystery fiction? i am confused about it. i got information that mystery fiction's subgenres are detective, spy, and crime fiction. another information, detective fiction is another term of mystery fiction. anyone can make it clear, please? based on strong source, of course.

Worth noting that there was no response.

Wisegeek gives us

• Mystery fiction is a popular literary genre set around a crime, usually a murder or series of murders. Classic types of this genre include locked room, drawing room, and hard-boiled mysteries. More realistic mysteries reflective of actual police investigative and forensic crime-solving methods have arisen in more recent years. Pioneered in the novels and short fiction of the 1800s, the genre has inspired movies, TV and radio series, and serial fiction featuring famous and enduring characters. These characters, usually professional or amateur detectives, outwit criminals and solve crimes. The story’s writer often plants clues to the mystery, challenging readers or viewers to guess the outcome first. This puzzle element contributes to the lasting popularity of mystery fiction of various kinds.

Another take

Or this one

• Mysteries encompass, officially, any fiction which involves a crime.

AN this one reads almost exactly like our defintion of Detective Drama

• Mystery Novel: A work of fiction which should meet all the requirements of any novel, and is additionally expected to include four essential elements:
  • Crime (usually, but not necessarily, murder),
  • Detective(s), whether professional (police or private) or amateur,
  • An investigative process, and
  • The identification of the culprit(s).

What is a mystery? what are its components?

• A mystery is loosely-defined as synonymous with detective fiction — in other words, a novel or short story in which a detective (either professional or amateur) solves a crime. The term "mystery fiction" may sometimes be limited to the subset of detective stories in which the emphasis is on the puzzle element and its logical solution (cf. whodunit), as a contrast to hardboiled detective stories which focus on action and gritty realism. However, in more general usage, "mystery" may be used to describe any form of crime fiction, even if there is no mystery to be solved. For example, the Mystery Writers of America describe themselves as "the premier organization for mystery writers, professionals allied to the crime writing field, aspiring crime writers, and those who are devoted to the genre." However, a mystery story can also be a story that has a villain that is ghostly and unknown. In this type of mystery story, it is just word of mouth that passes on the story from one person to another, and the being that is the villain may never be found by the reader or detective in the story; hence the name mystery fiction.

edited 26th Oct '11 12:29:33 PM by Auxdarastrix

Bumping for more votes.

Since this has started, I have updated the definition of Mystery Fiction as follows, given that the trend seems to be in favor of keeping these as separate tropes. I still think it would simplify things greatly if we just merge the two.

---

Also known as a Mystery Story or simply a mystery, Mystery Fiction is a genre where the plot revolves around a mysterious happening that acts as the Driving Question.

In a standard mystery, the explanation for the mystery is gradually revealed by the investigative process of the protagonists. This is accomplished through a mixture of intelligence, ingenuity, the logical interpretation of evidence, and sometimes sheer luck. Many mysteries use a Mystery Arc as the basis of their narrative structure, though variations on the theme can frequently be found.

Detective Fiction is a type of Mystery Fiction that focuses on a detective solving a crime, and the term is often treated as synonymous with Mystery Fiction.

edited 10th Nov '11 4:59:10 AM by Auxdarastrix

That looks and sounds good. Thanks for staying on this one, Auxdarastrix.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.