I don't understand the renaming

I don't understand the renaming:

Total posts: [35]
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Why? I mean, really, why? Nakama and Kuudere? Really? I guess I could maybe understand the Daisuke, but it still just seems unnecessary to me. What this naming really looks like to me is just a purge of Japanese influence.

If the argument is that the names didn't identify the trope on first glance (God forbid you have to read an article to understand a trope's meaning), then we need to go on a much crazier renaming spree. The Spock, Lampshade Hanging, Tin Man, Macguffin, Agent Moulder, etc. The list could go on and on. When you get down to it, all of these will probably be unidentifiable to someone, which requires them to read the article, which will then allow them to understand the name.

Maybe I'm crazy, but seeing some random name then reading the article to find out what it meant is part of the fun of T Vtropes. Maybe I'm crazy.
2 nrjxll9th Oct 2011 10:15:29 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
Complaint threads do not belong in Special Efforts - I don't know if they belong anywhere, but if they do it's in Wiki Talk. Special Efforts is generally for group projects to work on fixing things.
Whoops. Sorry. I've been trying to figure out where I might bring this up, but I literally couldn't see anywhere. This seemed the most relevant place at the time.
I'll move it to Wiki Talk.

We've had this discussion plenty of times. It would make sense, I guess, to have the reason posted someplace where we can just link people.

Anime jargon doesn't have 'legs' outside anime fandom. It doesn't catch on with people who don't have an interest in that art form. That means we need a name for tropes that are used outside anime fandom that will catch on.

We know that people will see something like kuudere and just skip it because they think it is bound to be something about anime.

That's the reason for the renames. We want the trope names to be available to the largest number of readers possible.

If the trope is truly anime-only, we stick with the anime fandom term.

edited 9th Oct '11 10:27:46 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
If that's the case, then shouldn't the American themed names such as Agent Moulder also be changed?
No, because they don't get skipped over like the anime fandom terms do. Most readers can assume it will have something to do with general discussion of media, not just anime.

edited 9th Oct '11 10:31:14 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
So, essentially, we're tailoring to the majority of readers. Seems like this kind of screws the few minorities who don't know about those trope namers.

Edit: Scratch that. I see what you're saying now. I'm still not happy about it though.

edited 9th Oct '11 10:38:07 PM by raxies94


edited 9th Oct '11 10:38:59 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Lol. I will forever remember the day I ninj'd Fast Eddie.
For the record, it should be mentioned that the definition of the word "Nakama" is not only not the trope, but actually outright contradictory to the trope, being better translated as "the sum of everyone you associate with at all, whether you like them or not."
I'm ignorant about all that.
12 feotakahari9th Oct 2011 11:21:05 PM from Looking out at the city
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
I was under the impression that we'd changed a lot of the names like Agent Mulder. A few get away with the Grandfather Clause, but not many.
That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
13 nrjxll9th Oct 2011 11:23:08 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
[up]Correct. Agent Mulder itself is now in the Trope Repair Shop, IIRC.

While there has been a specific focus on tropes with Japanese names, all tropes whose names come from specific fandoms are considered dubious at best. The Mario was renamed, for instance.

edited 9th Oct '11 11:24:16 PM by nrjxll

Alternate names that pertain to specific fandoms are encouraged, but it's all about accessibility. Here's Your Sign (after Bill Engvall's "stupid people" routine) is a redirect to Ask a Stupid Question... for that reason.

Also, as mentioned, when you use a foreign term that invites further misunderstanding of the trope, especially if the name doesn't accurately describe the trope but merely sounds exotic. If it exists in the professional realm (used by critics, filmmakers and writing teachers) then that is the only time we go with a term rather than an indicative name.
the trouble with redirects is that if you use them on a page, someone will come along and "fix" it, and then we cull unused redirects.

I would have no problem with renaming a trope, and having the dull descriptive name on top of the page if we were allowed to use the redirects for the original, usually more fun and interesting name, on works pages. We don't allow that though, that's why I hate 99% of renames.

A rename should only affect the wicks if the rename is part of a retool of the trope. Ambiguously Autistic to Ambiguous Disorder is a good example of wicks that needed to be fixed because the revamped trope no longer reflected the old name. Robinson Goldberg Contraption didn't need the wicks altered, because the rename to Rube Goldberg Contraption was more for ease of American audiences who don't know about Heath Robinson, but the purging was done anyway.
16 SilentReverence11th Oct 2011 09:01:35 AM from 3 tiles right 1 tile up
adopting kitteh
I agree completely with that sentiment. In particular for tropes that are renamed away from their original context in which using the original name to refer to the trope allows for more clarity/brevity. Rid Me Of This Priest was a very good example, as would be Samus Is a Girl if it was renamed.

There's simply no reason why we can't continue to use the old names. They are still valid, they are still usable, and sincerely, one too many times they are better than the new ones.

17 Fighteer11th Oct 2011 09:17:10 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Sorry, SR, but you are not allowed to circumvent a TRS action you disagree with by refusing to use the new title in examples. That's being a dick. Redirects are for searching, not for general usage — the main exceptions to this are for grammatical reasons, like all the variants of Lampshade Hanging. Redirects from an old title also serve to preserve inbounds. All internal wicks are supposed to be changed as part of the rename process.

edited 11th Oct '11 9:18:23 AM by Fighteer

18 shimaspawn11th Oct 2011 09:58:41 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Grammatical purposes or switching gender. Otherwise it's generally bad form.

edited 11th Oct '11 9:58:53 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
19 bwburke9424th Oct 2011 05:52:03 PM from Massachusetts , Relationship Status: It's complicated
Hates the new layout
The "moment" renames tend to be ignored, though. Crowning Moment of Awesome still has many more wicks than Moment Of Awesome or Awesome Moments or any of those "newer" titles.
So why is the signature line 140 characters? Thought that was only a Twitter thing.
20 Elle24th Oct 2011 06:21:21 PM , Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
Alternately, no one is committed enough to lead the effort to change all the old wicks, especially since it was an admin fiat decision and not a community one.
21 SilentReverence25th Oct 2011 11:25:54 AM from 3 tiles right 1 tile up
adopting kitteh
But I'm not circumnventing TRS action, Fighteer, unless the TRS crowner explicitly says "ban the old name from the wiki"; the old name is still valid and several times, as I have exposed, it does describe the trope better in various instances of the examples. I would understand it if the trope was renamed because the old name was simply wrong (eg.: Nakama), but that's another matter entirely.

And honestly I don't see how it can be considered dickery, although in my latest interactions with you I feel that opinion is expected coming from you. You know, not all people who have used a trope are going to immediately find out that the trope name was changed. Edits can still slip by using the old name, for example, in particular when the change is relatively minimal in terms of form (Bloody Biometric comes immediately to mind), and I don't see how that can be seen as being a dick.

And precisely the reason I'm bringing this is for what I exposed above. I don't see a social or technical reason why we must move all wicks when we change the name of a trope. If we are allowing the old names to persist for searchability, then why can't the new names be the redirect ones? In the end it is the same, but with less effort in the organization of the wiki. Unless the old name was wrong, but again, that's another issue.

22 Fighteer25th Oct 2011 11:52:50 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
We're describing several different situations here. A troper who uses an old name because he/she is not aware of the rename is not committing a crime, although usually someone comes along and fixes it in the course of Wiki Magic.

However, allowing old titles to persist causes several problems. One is Trope Decay, as often the old title was a cause of confusion as to its definition. Similarly, if a title caused frequent misuse, continued use of said title will perpetuate the problem that caused it to be renamed in the first place. Third, having multiple titles in use leads to the situation where someone will go to a page, not see Nakama (for example), and add it, not noticing that True Companions is listed shortly below. It also screws up indexing, but that's not a major concern for what we're talking about.

Added to that, we have the occasion where someone willfully uses the old title because they disagreed with the results of the crowner. Isn't there enough potential for trouble with all of the above without someone intentionally circumventing wiki consensus? Anyway, fixing all the wicks is part and parcel of the TRS process. Skipping it is not acceptable.

edited 25th Oct '11 11:53:41 AM by Fighteer

I'm all for the FORKS approach, and let me explain it. Yes, I know that many of the old titles are only understandable if you saw the Trope Namer, and maybe not even then. But this actually has an advantage many people don't see, it seems: In the past, I would browse the wiki and find sometimes a trope which name is completely obscure. Like Spikeification, or Bucket Of Ears, My Name Is Prince Darien, or Welcome To Marklar. It doesn't matter that I often didn't see the shows. Obscure titles are interesting. Who are Spike and Prince Darien, where's Marklar, why a bucket of ears? Now I'm very curious, so I'd open it and learn a bit more. About the trope AND often a new show.

But now? Badass Decay, Digging Yourself Deeper, Dub Induced Plothole, Planet of Steves? TV Tropes doesn't hold secrets anymore. It's becoming more and more boring. Why, just why? Did the US government tell you that the site is too addictive and ordered you to change this?

Tip: If anyone misses the old wiki, check out web.archive.org. To relive the old days.

edited 21st Nov '11 4:41:05 AM by Frank75

Fuhrmann, es kostet dir noch dein Leben
24 JapaneseTeeth21st Nov 2011 07:30:55 AM from Meinong's jungle , Relationship Status: Mu
[up]That might be true in your case, but there are just as many readers who would see those same trope names and just get confused. It also makes it tougher to remember the trope names when you want to link them to something.
25 Firebert21st Nov 2011 12:19:59 PM from Somewhere in Illinois
That One Guy
Indeed. I enjoy the SPOONS approach because it is much more user-friendly, especially for people who only casually visit the site.

Total posts: 35
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