IP discussion: thread reasons, policies, other stuff:

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In an effort to keep the volume of threads in IP at a reasonable level, and to encourage creating threads that address genuine problems, we need to make some notes about when to request a thread and what constitutes valid reasons for a thread. These have been mentioned in some of the other IP procedure threads, but they're being listed here for quick reference.

    open/close all folders 

    Approval of threads 

New IP threads must be approved by the staff before they will be opened. Please take time to review the guidelines below and make sure your request is solid before submitting it.

    General notes on adding/changing images and requesting threads 

  • IP isn't obligatory, but it is strongly recommended. Otherwise, the image you put up may end up coming to the forum for work or replacement.
  • Pages that have gone through IP should have a commented-out tag showing the relevant thread(s). Always check for these before adding a pic or requesting an IP thread for a page.
  • If you have an image that you think could work as a page pic, you can suggest it in a thread. However, make sure you keep the quality criteria below in mind, and that the page hasn't already had IP work done.
  • For pages without pics:
    • Work pages generally don't require an IP thread to upload a pic, but feel free to request one if you have multiples you'd like to narrow down or questions about your suggestion.
    • Please have a concrete suggestion for a trope page. This is relaxed a bit for tropes that are fresh out of YKTTW, when a pic idea might not have surfaced during the build process.
  • A thread requested within two weeks of the closing of a previous thread on the same page that doesn't have a concrete suggestion will be denied immediately.
  • Animated GIFs aren't allowed as page pics. True Art Is Incomprehensible is the one exception, per admin fiat.note 

    IP thread reasons 

The following are reasons to instantly pull an image and make a request to replace it:

  • Not Safe For Work (NSFW)
Classic works of art that contain nudity, such as Michelangelo's David or Botticelli's The Birth of Venus, don't necessarily fall into this, but appropriateness for the page in question is the key factor, and SFW options should be considered whenever possible.
  • Spoiler
  • Watermarked to any degree. A TV channel emblem on a screencap is a "bug", not a true watermark, and is permissible as long as it's not obtrusive.
  • Any meme-based picture.note 
  • Copyright issues:
    • The pic implies TV Tropes is claiming the copyright.
    • The pic has been taken from a site that deals in copyrighted images or videos such as Cartoonstock, especially if a watermark has been removed and/or the site is selling their content. Screencaps from videos from these sites are not permitted, either
    • Using an entire work:
      • Basically, if it's copyrighted, we have to get permission to use it. This covers single-panel cartoons, photographs, entire comic strips and webcomics, and similar works.
      • Some artists, such as xkcd's creator, have given us carte blanche to use entire works as needed. If permission is granted to use an entire work, it's always noted on the page in some fashion, usually in the caption and/or with the page tag. If an artist requests a specific way to display their connection to the pic, we'll do our best to honor it.
      • Entire individual cards from card-based games like Magic: The Gathering can be used, but their nature makes this impractical. Using the art from these cards is fine.
    • Some creators do not want their work used outside their control at all, but fair use means that we are not legally bound to honor this for the wiki's purposes, aside from the aforementioned restrictions. We'll honor a take-down request, but it's up to them to send it. We're not obliged to chase them down and ask them what their policy is. Fair use also allows us to use excerpts of works without seeking permission. In this case, the minimum needed to get the trope across should be used.

The following are valid general reasons to request a thread:

  • The page doesn't have a pic.
  • The pic doesn't adequately demonstrate the trope. Examples of this include:
    • Just a Face and a Caption (JAFAAC)—the pic is something (usually a character) who is an example of the trope but relies on familiarity with the character or work to make the connection to the trope evident.
    • A pic that is nothing but text, or one where the text overwhelms the imagery. You may see "might as well be a page quote" used in IP to describe this. There are exceptions (Spoof Aesop, for example), especially for tropes that are inherently dialogue-based, but generally we want to have actual images as trope pics with just enough text to support the expression of the trope.
  • The pic is of objectively low quality. Graininess, motion blur, and artifactingnote  are three of the most common problems.
Oversized pics are forced by the page coding to 350 px width, which can make the image look artifacted. Check the image's properties before starting a thread; if it can be downsized and replaced, it may not need a thread.
  • The current pic is over the 350 px size limit and you'd like to suggest a new pic rather than upload a resized version.
  • Fan-art on a work page, when a pic from the actual work would be better.
  • The current pic is overly fanservicey, especially in the Creator/ namespace.
  • Two trope pages have the same pic. A work and trope can have the same image but it's preferred that they be separate.
  • You believe you have a suggestion that better illustrates the trope than the current pic (by Image Pickin' standards, not "This is a cooler pic.")
  • A pic has been changed or removed from a page for a reason that may not be valid, or no reason at all, especially if the pic was chosen by a previous IP thread.
  • A page marked as No Real Life Examples, Please! has a Real Life pic. We generally want to avoid this, but there are exceptions (Foreign Queasine, for one), so check for an IP tag before making a thread about one of these pages.
  • A YMMV or Audience Reaction page has a pic that is not In-Universe. As with the NRLEP pages, there are exceptions (Paranoia Fuel and The Scrappy, for example), so check for an IP tag before making a thread about one of these pages.
  • A page has an unusual image arrangement not chosen by an IP thread and you don't think it works well, e.g. having two images on a trope page. Some pages have multiple pics for a reason (Our Orcs Are Different, for example) so check for an IP tag before starting a thread in this case.

The following are NOT valid reasons to request a thread:

  • Not liking the art style or any Photoshopping or similar alterations that may have been made, provided they don't impact the pic's quality.
  • Claiming that a particular work is over-/under-represented. This can have some impact on deciding on a pic, but should never be the main gist of a thread.
  • Trying to argue that a pic you liked wasn't chosen in a previous thread, especially if it lost in a crowner, or trying to make an invalid argument that a pic doesn't work for a page even though it was chosen by a thread. Repeatedly doing this is grounds for suspension from the workshop forums.
  • Some trope pages feature Visual Puns or other jokey pics rather than something that actually demonstrates the trope, usually because these pages have been very hard to find a better pic for.note  Don't request a thread just because you don't like the joke; if you've got an actual example, that's fine. Also, see the "Don't change the pic" note in the next section.

Special cases

edited 9th Jun '15 2:18:31 PM by Willbyr

1 Willbyr7th Oct 2011 04:24:20 AM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
In an effort to keep the volume of threads in IP at a reasonable level, and to encourage creating threads that address genuine problems, we need to make some notes about when to request a thread and what constitutes valid reasons for a thread. These have been mentioned in some of the other IP procedure threads, but they're being listed here for quick reference.

    open/close all folders 

    Approval of threads 

New IP threads must be approved by the staff before they will be opened. Please take time to review the guidelines below and make sure your request is solid before submitting it.

    General notes on adding/changing images and requesting threads 

  • IP isn't obligatory, but it is strongly recommended. Otherwise, the image you put up may end up coming to the forum for work or replacement.
  • Pages that have gone through IP should have a commented-out tag showing the relevant thread(s). Always check for these before adding a pic or requesting an IP thread for a page.
  • If you have an image that you think could work as a page pic, you can suggest it in a thread. However, make sure you keep the quality criteria below in mind, and that the page hasn't already had IP work done.
  • For pages without pics:
    • Work pages generally don't require an IP thread to upload a pic, but feel free to request one if you have multiples you'd like to narrow down or questions about your suggestion.
    • Please have a concrete suggestion for a trope page. This is relaxed a bit for tropes that are fresh out of YKTTW, when a pic idea might not have surfaced during the build process.
  • A thread requested within two weeks of the closing of a previous thread on the same page that doesn't have a concrete suggestion will be denied immediately.
  • Animated GIFs aren't allowed as page pics. True Art Is Incomprehensible is the one exception, per admin fiat.note 

    IP thread reasons 

The following are reasons to instantly pull an image and make a request to replace it:

  • Not Safe For Work (NSFW)
Classic works of art that contain nudity, such as Michelangelo's David or Botticelli's The Birth of Venus, don't necessarily fall into this, but appropriateness for the page in question is the key factor, and SFW options should be considered whenever possible.
  • Spoiler
  • Watermarked to any degree. A TV channel emblem on a screencap is a "bug", not a true watermark, and is permissible as long as it's not obtrusive.
  • Any meme-based picture.note 
  • Copyright issues:
    • The pic implies TV Tropes is claiming the copyright.
    • The pic has been taken from a site that deals in copyrighted images or videos such as Cartoonstock, especially if a watermark has been removed and/or the site is selling their content. Screencaps from videos from these sites are not permitted, either
    • Using an entire work:
      • Basically, if it's copyrighted, we have to get permission to use it. This covers single-panel cartoons, photographs, entire comic strips and webcomics, and similar works.
      • Some artists, such as xkcd's creator, have given us carte blanche to use entire works as needed. If permission is granted to use an entire work, it's always noted on the page in some fashion, usually in the caption and/or with the page tag. If an artist requests a specific way to display their connection to the pic, we'll do our best to honor it.
      • Entire individual cards from card-based games like Magic: The Gathering can be used, but their nature makes this impractical. Using the art from these cards is fine.
    • Some creators do not want their work used outside their control at all, but fair use means that we are not legally bound to honor this for the wiki's purposes, aside from the aforementioned restrictions. We'll honor a take-down request, but it's up to them to send it. We're not obliged to chase them down and ask them what their policy is. Fair use also allows us to use excerpts of works without seeking permission. In this case, the minimum needed to get the trope across should be used.

The following are valid general reasons to request a thread:

  • The page doesn't have a pic.
  • The pic doesn't adequately demonstrate the trope. Examples of this include:
    • Just a Face and a Caption (JAFAAC)—the pic is something (usually a character) who is an example of the trope but relies on familiarity with the character or work to make the connection to the trope evident.
    • A pic that is nothing but text, or one where the text overwhelms the imagery. You may see "might as well be a page quote" used in IP to describe this. There are exceptions (Spoof Aesop, for example), especially for tropes that are inherently dialogue-based, but generally we want to have actual images as trope pics with just enough text to support the expression of the trope.
  • The pic is of objectively low quality. Graininess, motion blur, and artifactingnote  are three of the most common problems.
Oversized pics are forced by the page coding to 350 px width, which can make the image look artifacted. Check the image's properties before starting a thread; if it can be downsized and replaced, it may not need a thread.
  • The current pic is over the 350 px size limit and you'd like to suggest a new pic rather than upload a resized version.
  • Fan-art on a work page, when a pic from the actual work would be better.
  • The current pic is overly fanservicey, especially in the Creator/ namespace.
  • Two trope pages have the same pic. A work and trope can have the same image but it's preferred that they be separate.
  • You believe you have a suggestion that better illustrates the trope than the current pic (by Image Pickin' standards, not "This is a cooler pic.")
  • A pic has been changed or removed from a page for a reason that may not be valid, or no reason at all, especially if the pic was chosen by a previous IP thread.
  • A page marked as No Real Life Examples, Please! has a Real Life pic. We generally want to avoid this, but there are exceptions (Foreign Queasine, for one), so check for an IP tag before making a thread about one of these pages.
  • A YMMV or Audience Reaction page has a pic that is not In-Universe. As with the NRLEP pages, there are exceptions (Paranoia Fuel and The Scrappy, for example), so check for an IP tag before making a thread about one of these pages.
  • A page has an unusual image arrangement not chosen by an IP thread and you don't think it works well, e.g. having two images on a trope page. Some pages have multiple pics for a reason (Our Orcs Are Different, for example) so check for an IP tag before starting a thread in this case.

The following are NOT valid reasons to request a thread:

  • Not liking the art style or any Photoshopping or similar alterations that may have been made, provided they don't impact the pic's quality.
  • Claiming that a particular work is over-/under-represented. This can have some impact on deciding on a pic, but should never be the main gist of a thread.
  • Trying to argue that a pic you liked wasn't chosen in a previous thread, especially if it lost in a crowner, or trying to make an invalid argument that a pic doesn't work for a page even though it was chosen by a thread. Repeatedly doing this is grounds for suspension from the workshop forums.
  • Some trope pages feature Visual Puns or other jokey pics rather than something that actually demonstrates the trope, usually because these pages have been very hard to find a better pic for.note  Don't request a thread just because you don't like the joke; if you've got an actual example, that's fine. Also, see the "Don't change the pic" note in the next section.

Special cases

edited 9th Jun '15 2:18:31 PM by Willbyr

2 Ghilz7th Oct 2011 04:26:40 AM from The Moon. Or Canada. , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Fight It Out!
What about brainstorming thread for article without images at all?
3 Willbyr7th Oct 2011 06:01:13 AM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] I thought about that right after I hit Send, but I had to leave...OP edited to reflect.
4 Spark97th Oct 2011 06:02:18 AM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
I think that a "gripe" can be treated as a "Motion To Pull" even if it doesn't use the exact words "motion to pull".
Special trousers. Very heroic.
5 Willbyr7th Oct 2011 06:04:51 AM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] Not necessarily...if all you're doing is basically saying "I don't like this pic," then you need to have something in mind to replace it. Whether or not a pic looks bad aesthetically isn't as important as how well it demonstrates the trope. JAFAAC; not representing all or part of the trope; artifacting, being over the size limit, or other obvious quality issues...those are legit reasons to make a pull motion (beyond the "pull on sight" stuff like spoilers, NSFW, watermarks, etc.)

edited 7th Oct '11 6:09:09 AM by Willbyr

6 Spark97th Oct 2011 06:13:47 AM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] Well, that's a good point, but it's far from clear from this stickied thread. It would help if there was a stickied list of common or accepted reasons to pull at the top of the forum.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
7 Deboss7th Oct 2011 11:32:33 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
There's this which fits some of your criteria.

If you're starting a thread, and the first post includes "not bad, but I know we can do better than this" or some variant, don't start the thread.
8 JapaneseTeeth8th Oct 2011 12:22:25 PM from Meinong's jungle , Relationship Status: Mu
SPLATOON
[up]Yeah, this is more of a "If the current pic doesn't need to be replaced, don't bother." There have been quite a few threads that are just "We can do better", which is really aggravating, especially if there's no suggested replacement.

[up][up]That probably would be a good idea. Have list of readily accessible "only start a thread if the current pic:"
  • Doesn't adequately demonstrate the trope
  • Is copyrighted
  • Is NSFW
  • Is of objectively low quality*
  • etc.

edited 8th Oct '11 12:32:31 PM by JapaneseTeeth

9 Spark98th Oct 2011 02:34:24 PM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up]

  • Is JAFAAC.
  • Cannot be understood without the caption.
  • Is an entire strip from a (web)comic; displaying a few panels is fine but showing the entire strip is not.
  • Is fan-art, when you have a suitable replacement image from an actual work.
  • Is a Demotivator.

(yeah, the first two are a subset of "does not adequately display the trope", but common enough to be worth mentioning)

Special trousers. Very heroic.
10 Ghilz8th Oct 2011 02:36:29 PM from The Moon. Or Canada. , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Fight It Out!
[up]Pretty sure #4 has never been a policy. Except on work/character pages. But for trope pages, never.
More concisely, if you think the image currently up is worse than having no image at all, for whatever reason.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
12 Madrugada8th Oct 2011 02:39:48 PM , Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
"Is JAFAAC" is not enough for an autopull, until several people agree that it's JAFAAC. There are people who think any picture of a person or any image that doesn't work completely without any caption at all is JAFAAC.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
13 Willbyr8th Oct 2011 03:32:37 PM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] Exactly.

Putting the lists together and adding some other stuff. The following are valid reasons to propose replacing a page pic:

  • Doesn't adequately demonstrate the trope
    • Is JAFAAC
  • Is copyrighted in a manner that implies TV Tropes is claiming the copyright
  • Is watermarked to any degree*
  • Is NSFW
  • Is of objectively low quality*
  • Is a spoiler.
  • The caption does all the work at demonstrating the trope.
  • Is an entire strip from a (web)comic; displaying a few panels is fine but showing the entire strip is not. Single-panel cartoons are not permissible for the same reason.
  • Is fan-art on a work's page, when you have a suitable replacement image from an actual work.
  • Is a Demotivator or other meme-based picture.

edited 8th Oct '11 5:07:29 PM by Willbyr

14 JapaneseTeeth8th Oct 2011 04:17:50 PM from Meinong's jungle , Relationship Status: Mu
SPLATOON
Can we note that the fan art thing only applies to work pages? On trope pages we've never worried about whether it's official or not as long as it's good quality. And maybe move "JAFAAC" to a sub-bullet under "Doesn't illustrate the trope". We also might want to reword the one about the caption to something like "The caption does all the work illustrating the trope". As it is, it makes it sound like the caption can't be necessary for illustrating the trope. The caption can be necessary, just not to a degree that the image is inconsequential.

edited 8th Oct '11 4:20:59 PM by JapaneseTeeth

15 Ghilz8th Oct 2011 04:22:22 PM from The Moon. Or Canada. , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Fight It Out!
[up]Indeed. It's been often repeated that fanworks aren't regarded as less valid of a work than "official" works. It's part of the reason we have There Is No Such Thing as Notability - These works aren't in a lesser light than official ones, and work trope page image, are equally valid.
16 Willbyr8th Oct 2011 05:07:42 PM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up][up] Noted and edited to reflect.
17 Madrugada8th Oct 2011 08:47:32 PM , Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Caption does all the work is also a sub-bullet under "Doesn't illustrate the trope., although it really just a rewording of JAFAAC.

We also should probably put in there "Speech bubbles do all the work, the visual adds nothing" or "Might as well be a page quote."
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
18 Deboss9th Oct 2011 05:23:52 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
You should switch it "the work" in the fan art one. Also, mention that NSFW is "immediately pull this" criteria. Also it should be "reasons to remove a picture".
19 Willbyr9th Oct 2011 06:17:59 PM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
Alright, instead of constantly adding the lists at the end of the thread, I'll edit the OP with the lists.
20 Deboss9th Oct 2011 06:47:57 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
"You think you have a better one (by Image Pickin' standards, not "whose work is more awesome" standards."

Since it's for replacing.
21 JapaneseTeeth9th Oct 2011 06:58:31 PM from Meinong's jungle , Relationship Status: Mu
SPLATOON
Two things:

1. Should we add "is a duplicate with another trope page" under reasons for starting a thread? I'm not sure if it's a bit enough problem to bother with starting a thread.

2. Should we have a third "These are not acceptable reasons for starting a thread" category with stuff like "I don't like the art style" or "this work is overrepresented"?
22 Willbyr9th Oct 2011 08:14:11 PM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] Those both need to be added; I've been catching up the other threads but I'll get to that soon.

[up][up] Not following what you're referring to.
EDIT: Hang on, I just figured it out...did I cover it right?

I know there are one or two more "pull on sight" criteria, but I can't think of them right now.

edited 9th Oct '11 8:51:36 PM by Willbyr

23 Deboss9th Oct 2011 10:09:58 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I think "demotivators" are instant pull, but you have the option of gutting it if you want. Hm, I think if it's over the size limit, you can instant swap it.

Well, I tried to word it in such a way that "I think this picture shows the trope better" is acceptable, but "I think this picture is cooler" or "I think this work is better" were not. Also, I think we frown upon griefing (ie: opening an IP multiple times because you dislike the current, remember Tomboyish Ponytail?).
24 Willbyr9th Oct 2011 10:52:18 PM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
We've been putting some meme-based pics through the motion process recently, but I'd be fine with making them an instant-pull...might be one for the mods to make a call on.

Good call on the griefing and the oversized pics; they're added. I tweaked the wording a bit on the "better pic" suggestion; how's it look?

I also changed the thread title since the focus has shifted.

edited 9th Oct '11 10:57:53 PM by Willbyr

25 Deboss9th Oct 2011 11:13:59 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I'd say it depends on how memetic. LOLCats I think can go die in a fire, but I think the reaction guys actually work to some degree, since the "meme" part is generally the part that isn't them.

Total posts: 1,168
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