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On using a Sexually Submissive Big Bad:

 1 Sand Josieph, Wed, 28th Sep '11 5:50:41 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
OK, how far am I writing myself into a corner here? The Big Bad of my story is a demonic girl who embodies many of the things that are depicted as wrong with female characters. For example, she's both fairly overpowered and yet likes to be overpowered by another. Which leads to many odd instances of her reviewing her master plans while wearing a collar around her neck as she sits at the feet of her current master. And no, he does not play any role in the over arching plot as The Dragon. Instead, his task is to abusively amuse her in any way he sees fit. The trouble here is that trying to keep the Villain Ball of Big Bad on her is rather difficult when he tells her to strip naked or risk another whipping, which he'll give her regardless of whether or not she complies. How can this be pulled off without giving people too much of a headache?
♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
slice of lice
There's a lot of stories about big executives and CEOS and shit being into BDSM a lot. They are in control too much and find some pleasure in the opposite. Not that big a stretch.
Forget the tropes until after you're done.
 3 jagillette, Wed, 28th Sep '11 6:28:23 PM from the middle of nowhere
Wimpy Mc Squishy
I think it sounds like a pretty interesting twist. It's not all that unbelievable, and if done right I don't think it necessarily detracts from the character. It might even make her look even more crazy than she already would (that being almost a prerequisite for a Big Bad). It could even be played for laughs, maybe.
 4 Sand Josieph, Wed, 28th Sep '11 6:28:58 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
[up][up]Strange, I've never heard of those stories. What are they like?

edited 28th Sep '11 6:29:21 PM by SandJosieph

♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
slice of lice
By "stories" i tried to mean in real life.

You know, like some big ol' rich guy calls over for a hooker to spank him after work or something. I'm finding it hard to get thoughts across, but this is definitely a thing.

It may even be mentioned somewhere on T Vtropes itself but I can't be assed to find it.

edited 28th Sep '11 6:59:29 PM by OuthouseInferno

Forget the tropes until after you're done.
 6 Sand Josieph, Wed, 28th Sep '11 7:37:05 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
Yes, but Real Life does not make for entertainment, at least as far as trying to use it as a foundation for this character. Instead, I was trying to create a character who was on both ends of control spectrum but was having trouble making the shifts without it being incredibly jarring.
♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
Try to imagine it as Fetish Fuel. It'll definitely make her look crazier, but making it appealing to you, as well, will make it more appealing to the reader.

 8 Sand Josieph, Wed, 28th Sep '11 7:51:56 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
Ooh, that's going to be a problem because I don't find submissive women to be a good source of Fetish Fuel. I mean I do know that some people do find such women to be desirable it just isn't one of mine.
♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
Meh, you don't really have to make it desirable; just make it sexually appealing enough that the reader would find it both arousing and disturbing at the same time. Too sexy, and it'll just sound like Author Appeal; not sexy enough, and it'll just be creepy. Both, though, will be interesting...

edited 28th Sep '11 7:57:43 PM by tropetown

 10 Sand Josieph, Wed, 28th Sep '11 8:06:58 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
How about this for an idea: The girl's Masters also serve as the commanders of her troops with each one representing various level of dominance. Like one could be "the Humiliator" and another could be "the Exploiter".
♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
Oooh, that could be good; you could even have her sanity slowly slip as each Master is eliminated, causing her to make up for the loss of the one Master by overindulging in what is represented by the others. In fact, by the end, you could show her unrestrainedly binging in whatever facet of BDSM that the last Master represents, and could use that to highlight how mentally unbalanced she's gotten by that point. It wouldn't even be as if she were enjoying it; it would be more like an addiction... to pain. A compulsion to self-humiliate, in other words. Done right, that would come off really unnerving, especially if you made it seem strangely arousing in the beginning.

Actually, if you can ratchet up the sexiness and the creepiness by the same amount until you hit the end, it might leave the audience feeling really dirty by the end of the story...

edited 28th Sep '11 8:33:59 PM by tropetown

 12 Sand Josieph, Wed, 28th Sep '11 9:00:32 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
Especially if the heroine herself at one point is confronted by the Big Bad in a wrecked state mania once her last Master (who probably represents Tyranny) is eliminated and is desperately asking the her to fill in. To which she answers, "No." Which in turn causes the Big Bad to implode in a state of unfulfilled unsatisfied emptiness.

Wait...what are the facets of BDSM?
♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
It's easy, mmkay?
How about you make it comedic? Like, intentionally stress the absurdity of the contrast.
At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
I have no idea. That ending sounds like a Cruel Mercy; instead of finishing her off, your hero is just going to let her lie in a huddled ball of unfulfilled desire? Cold. Entertaining, though. [lol]

edited 28th Sep '11 9:33:15 PM by tropetown

 15 nrjxll, Wed, 28th Sep '11 9:42:08 PM Relationship Status: Not war
I'm actually not sure I understand the question. Is it:

  • How do I do have this character be taken seriously?
  • How do I make it seem like she's the Big Bad given her submissiveness?
  • How do I write a character like this at all?

As far as what other people have said, I completely disagree that this should be played for Fetish Fuel if she's meant to be taken as an entirely serious antagonist.

Depends; if you juxtapose the Fetish Fuel with Squick and insanity, the villain will seem quite unstable and could be a source of High Octane Nightmare Fuel. It would all depend on how you want her to be portrayed in-story, of course.

edited 28th Sep '11 9:47:41 PM by tropetown

 17 Sand Josieph, Wed, 28th Sep '11 9:53:23 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
Well, she is the Big Bad. She has many troops lead by a number of commanders whom she has dubbed Masters. I was really trying to create an interesting juxtaposition between her willingness to let her Masters have their way with her while still remaining in charge. And these Masters really do have their way with her as some will exploit her, other will blackmail her, and a few even tie her and force a bit of Mind Control on her. That last one doesn't really work as all it does is make suggestions that she can choose to obey.
♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
It's easy, mmkay?
Oh, I know how to make it obvious she's a serious villain. Have her partner also be a mook of some sort. Not an important mook like The Dragon, just some mook. Have her pull a You Have Failed Me on him, to show that she does ultimately put her villainy above her tastes.
At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
 19 Sand Josieph, Wed, 28th Sep '11 10:11:17 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
Oh, so like if one of her Commander's orders failed while he was in a session of dominating her she could end the session right then and there and he would have to comply?
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 20 Marker Mage, Thu, 29th Sep '11 9:08:47 AM from My own little world
World Ends Oct 21, 2011
And now I have this mental picture of those masters giving the Big Bad updates on the progress of her plans during a BDSM session. Something like her current master bragging about his recent achievements in a "and that is why I control you" sort of way.

And the thought of how this would be done when one of those masters has lost to the hero. The master would be visually nervous. He would have the big bad in more restraints than normal (to her delight), and he would check those restraints repeatedly. And once he gives that bad news, the big bad would just make this instant switch from a submissive girl to a sadistic demon as this now cowering, empty shell of a man before her has proven himself unworthy of being her master. She would break through the restraints as soon as they got in the way of her approaching her ex-master. After some verbal abuse, she would summon a few of her other masters to take him away to be tortured/killed. And as the ex-master is being carried away, she tells one of the masters doing the carrying to stay with her.
Thinking of ideas to use with a literary work that is meant to be WikiWalked through.
 21 Sand Josieph, Thu, 29th Sep '11 6:24:48 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
I'm liking that idea. Makes me think of her going from whimpering to a Flat "What." upon hearing said news.

I would like her Masters to be more than mere BDSM, though. Like one who is designated as "the Master Pimp" who drugs up and later sells the Big Bad to various clients. I can imagine the Master Pimp entering the room while she and the heroine are in a conversation and the Big Bad states, "Well, time for me to endure some more abuse." Smiling the entire time, of course.

Other Masters I have thought of but not yet defined...

  1. The Seducer
  2. The Exploiter
  3. The Mind Controller
  4. The Beater
  5. The Baker
  6. The Candlestick Maker

I'm thinking that the Mind Controller works his magic by using various methods of hypnosis to enthrall his victims, including the Big Bad (with her permission, of course) while the Seducer would use his powers of Instant Seduction. He would probably be surrounded at all times by his victims of once strong willed women (and a few men) who attend to his every need. I'm not sure how the Exploiter would work, though.
♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
 22 annebeeche, Thu, 29th Sep '11 8:02:13 PM from by the long tidal river
watching down on us
I want to live in a world where society thinks it's wrong for females to be sexually submissive, because I'm sick of seeing submissive females in the world around me.

</mini soapbox>

I do agree that making a character more enjoyable for you will usually make the character in turn enjoyable for your readers, so if you're writing about a character who's the embodiment of a fetish you don't like, I don't suggest it unless you can manage it.

Also, Gaius Octavian comes to mind, as he happens to be a BDSM fetishist (top and bottom apparently) in HBO's Rome.

edited 29th Sep '11 8:09:20 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
I would like her Masters to be more than mere BDSM, though. Like one who is designated as "the Master Pimp" who drugs up and later sells the Big Bad to various clients. I can imagine the Master Pimp entering the room while she and the heroine are in a conversation and the Big Bad states, "Well, time for me to endure some more abuse." Smiling the entire time, of course.

So, in other words, your Big Bad will have a degradation fetish? That's still technically BDSM (masochism), but it would be interesting to see where you take it. The possibilities are endless... and disturbing. The more extreme you make it, the better. wink

edited 29th Sep '11 8:15:25 PM by tropetown

 24 Sand Josieph, Thu, 29th Sep '11 8:58:03 PM from Grand Galloping Galaday
Bigonkers! is Magic
So, in other words, your Big Bad will have a degradation fetish? That's still technically BDSM (masochism), but it would be interesting to see where you take it. The possibilities are endless... and disturbing. The more extreme you make it, the better.

I also like the challenge of trying to coordinate her degrading adventures with her ultimate plans.

I want to live in a world where society thinks it's wrong for females to be sexually submissive, because I'm sick of seeing submissive females in the world around me.

Which is why the villain is made out to be a bad role model; They can get away with doing bad things. Not that Bondage Is Bad, I just haven't been able to find a good way to make a counterpart character for the Big Bad. It makes a nice contrast with the heroine who is kind and generous yet very independent and finds it difficult to be submissive to anyone.
♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
It's easy, mmkay?
"I want to live in a world where society thinks it's wrong for females to be sexually submissive, because I'm sick of seeing submissive females in the world around me."

This is like wanting a world without white people because you're sick of white people being racist.

EDIT: On further inspection, no, this is like wanting a world without white people because you're sick of white people.

edited 29th Sep '11 9:14:41 PM by PDown

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
Total posts: 57
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