Voter fraud and voter disenfranchisement

But my point was that people shouldn't have to get ID to vote in a first world country.

Then how do you propose they prove their identity?

They don't -shrug-

Did anyone endorsing voter ID laws in this thread actually read the PDF Jethro linked on the previous page...? Electoral fraud is not a problem of any significance in the U.S. Further, and more relevant to this thread, voter ID laws only protect against impersonation at polls, which is less likely than being struck by lightning. Why is it so unlikely? Because the penalty for voter fraud is so high that there is no way double-voting could possibly be worth it. Every instance of one fraudulent vote equals five years in prison and a $10,000 fine, plus any state-level penalties. In other words, voter ID laws are completely superfluous and have no noticeable effect on fraud rates, yet they decrease turnout. I guess that's a good thing, if you want fewer people to participate in our democracy.

@Balmung:

edited 19th Oct '11 2:16:11 PM by darksidevoid

I know. I thought it was an obviously rhetorical question.

It was indeed. Since nobody seems to want to address that point whenever it's mentioned, however, I thought I'd bring it up again.

And that's how you get voter fraud.

I was going to post in here, but Tom got here with my post first.

Yet there has only been one case of Voter fraud in the United Kingdom since they got rid of pocket/rotten boroughs

Although I don't think it's that big an issue currently, "don't worry about it" is not the best way to go about that...

I was going to argue that countries with fewer requirements for voting don't have rampant voter fraud, so I did a Google search to prove my case. Unfortunately . . .

(British tropers: what came of that scandal? Most of the articles I've found about it are in the Torygraph and the Daily Fail, so I'm not sure whether there was actually fraud.)

Edit: Is this the incident you were referring to?

edited 19th Oct '11 4:00:57 PM by feotakahari

We are not the United Kingdom. Every possible cause has attempted and tried voter fraud before in the US. Every. Single. One of them.

Yes I was

The judge said the case "would shame a Banana Republic"

Is everyone just willfully ignoring the "there is no problem with voter fraud in the United States" and the "this will prevent roughly five million people from voting"?

I mean come on, if you're going to support an argument at least support it, don't just ignore everyone who says something you don't like.

Ah yes, we are at war with Eastasia, we've always been at war with Eastasia.

There is a problem with voter fraud in this country. Small enough that it doesn't significantly affect outcomes but large enough that it cannot be ignored.

I'm not endorsing voter ID laws, so much as I am looking at the deeper implications of millions of people who don't have something crucial to many other aspects of life besides voting.

The fact that requiring something that people ideally should be able to easily get because it's really important to have in general actually can be feasibly used as disenfranchisement to begin with seems like kind of a whole lot bigger problem than just the smaller bit people are railing at.

edited 19th Oct '11 4:34:10 PM by Jeysie

But my wall poster says Eurasia. I guess I'll need to fix that.

Ideally, elections would run longer than a day, so there's more opportunity to get out, and IDs would be free and easily obtained, but difficult to replicate/cheat.

It's heinously easy to get. Walk in, pay a few bucks, walk out with an ID. Takes maybe ten minutes tops. Most folks (even the dirt poor) already have one called a driver's license.

The government hands these things out like candy. No background checks, no restrictions, nada, it doesn't get any easier. Hell, you can't even conduct business in the real world or get a job without one, there's no excuse for anyone older than 18 to not have one, not a one. (Hell, there's no excuse for anyone who is 18 or younger not to have one.)

edited 19th Oct '11 4:40:36 PM by MajorTom

A reference to 1984 is not an argument.

Sorry.

edited 19th Oct '11 4:50:45 PM by ATC

^^ It does however make the absolute assertion of zero voter fraud in the US ridiculous.

edited 19th Oct '11 4:45:27 PM by MajorTom

For Christsake, if you're going to make sweeping statements, at least make them relevant to the thing you're making them about. Generally, at least looking like you care about the other side's argument goes a long way in not making you look ignorant.

If you've got to pay, it's a poll tax (however indirect) and it's unconstitutional.

edited 19th Oct '11 4:49:17 PM by SavageHeathen

Such is why I think the IDs should be free. Thus, they are no longer a tax of any kind, and serve the singular function of attempting to reduce fraud probability.

I wouldn't care very much if they were free.

Also if they were easier to get. I should ideally be able to get an ID in any place that knows where I live, which is a lot of places.