Anime Accent Absence needs to go into some sort of "pending TRS" category; I don't see any distinction from Not Even Bothering with the Accent.
I see the Awesomeness.
It is. The "needs TRS" is down at the bottom. Overall, I think it would be a good idea to make sure that none of our trope indexes have names that are identical to our chosen mediums.
Fight smart, not fair.
Cure Candy
We also have Useful Notes Japan Japan which is a freaken mess and in need of rename / sorting etc.
edited 28th Sep '11 7:19:23 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
We'll get to that next. Right now, let's stay on topic.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Cure Candy
If were talking about making Japanese Visual Tropes and other things like was said in the first post, we should probably do it all at once like merge Manga Tropes Anime Tropes Japan lists onto a sandbox then sort them all via the way we decide on here (what ever that is). It's all a mess with dupes, misplaced yada, no real description on anything and so on.
Just an idea of dealing with it all at once sorry.
Edit: I could of swore that the Manga Tropes page existed....
edited 28th Sep '11 8:23:56 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Ah, ok. Yeah, that's probably a good idea.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Tsundere pet.
Below notes use "anime" specifically to refer to animated shows and does not include manga. Dunno if this matches your proposed use of the term (there are certainly several good reasons to keep anime and manga together).
Japanese Visual Art Tropes is probably what's currently called Manga Effects.
Blue Bishōnen Ghetto in its original definition was the functional result of Bishōnen Jump Syndrome, although it seems to have broadened into "any show with a lot of hot guys in it". May or may not be Japanese depending on definition. Not anime-specific.
Finger-Suck Healing is a subtrope of Intimate Healing (so it doesn't cover sucking your own hurt fingers) and I personally have never seen it happen in a Western work. Not anime-specific.
Fist of Enthusiasm strikes me as a general trope.
Headbutt Thermometer - another thing I personally have never seen in a Western work. Not anime-specific.
Hexagonal Speech Balloon - Animated trope, but I think this happens outside of anime, probably needs a more general title.
Image Song - This is the official name for the phenomenon in Japan, and although it does sometimes happen in the West it's usually an accidental side effect. Mostly anime-specific, although it can happen for Drama CDs too.
Kamehame Hadoken - Japanese, not anime-specific.
Meido - Japanese take on French Maid, not anime-specific.
Phenotype Stereotype - Japanese, not anime-specific (happens in lots of manga and videogames, and the occasional live-action movie).
Pink Bishōjo Ghetto - I can't say that this absolutely never happens in Western work, but I can't think of any examples offhand. Not anime-specific.
School Swimsuit - Many non-Japanese school swim-teams have uniform swimsuits, but I don't know of any other country that has this universal system (dark blue suit with white nametag). Not anime-specific.
The Seven Mysteries (mysterious phenomena come in groups of seven) - Japanese, not anime-specific.
Finger Twiddling - Probably needs a rename. This gesture is handled quite differently in Japanese works than in modern Western works (usually sincere vs almost always twee or ironic), so if it's going to become a non-Japanese-specific trope it needs a rewrite too.
Visual Novel Shot - example pic is terrible, description needs tightening, but I think this is valid: a Shout-Out to Visual Novel styles in another media. Japanese, not anime-specific.
edited 28th Sep '11 8:33:15 AM by lebrel
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Finger-Suck Healing has Western examples, and I've certainly seen it in Western works, though it's far more likely to show up in things with vampires than anything else.
Fist of Enthusiasm needs a run through the YKTTW seeing as it's written terribly anime specific and has three examples.
Phenotype Stereotype should be a general trope. Everyone does it, not just the Japanese.
School Swimsuit as the one described is specific to Japanese culture.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Tsundere pet.
Kinda jumping around here, but I'll try to keep them alphabetized within each post at least. :P
Anime First - this isn't a visual trope so much as an industry/ merchandizing trope. Should go wherever The Anime of the Game goes.
Anime Hair - It's an index of hairstyles common in anime, but only some are specifically associated with Japanese media. Not sure what to do with it.
Artificial Riverbank - Zillions of cities have these, all over the world. Japanese media does seem much more likely to have this as a setting, though; there's an odds-on chance that any work involving schoolkids will have a "hanging out at the river" scene.
Cute Little Fangs - Outside of Petting-Zoo People and real-life cases of "tiger teeth", I think this is a Japanese thing that is currently bleeding into manga/anime-influenced Western works, not a general visual trope.
Inaction Sequence - I think this is an anime trope; Western animation typically avoids this like the plague (the only examples I can think of are made-in-Asia anime-influenced TV series).
Instant Seiza - not a visual trope, kind of a mess; is it about going into seiza position after falling to apologize, or about falling onto someone in a compromising position (both could be valid tropes), or specifically about the one happening after the other (which seems too specific)? Might need TRS.
Oddly Visible Eyebrows - I think the "Transparent Hair" variation is Japanese, but the trope as a whole not so much. I could see splitting off "eyebrows not connected to the face at all" (which is not Japanese) as its own thing.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Tsundere pet.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
"Finger Suck Healing has Western examples, and I've certainly seen it in Western works, though it's far more likely to show up in things with vampires than anything else."
I think that "sucking your wound because delicious bloooood" is separable from "sucking your wound to show that we have a particularly intimate relationship".
edited 28th Sep '11 10:02:50 AM by lebrel
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Yes, and no. It generally combines the two because blood and intimacy are both part of the whole vampire thing. And the My Super Ex Girlfriend example is one that plays it completely straight as written. Read the examples on the page. It shows up in Western works. Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Artificial Riverbank - Is used as a setting all over the place but because the trope is written so Japanese specific it's not picking up any Western examples.
Cute Little Fangs - Has a large chunk of Western examples that have nothing to do with anime.
edited 28th Sep '11 10:08:27 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Cure Candy
The Seiza tropes are a mess there is Instant Seiza and Seiza Squirm (maybe another one around.) need a TRS and maybe a useful notes supertrope to both of them (Note to self.... image picking for Seiza Squirm... Current is horrible and a great example in Heartcatch Precure ep 7, * Stupid work.) An Instant Seiza can also happen when someone is about to be caught doing something and they assume that in a "see I am being good" type thing so it's too restrictive.
Artificial Riverbank the name is sort of broad Riverbanks elsewhere usually don't follow the same style as Japanese ones nor do they have the same event stereotypes associated with them. I would be up for a trope transplant.
edited 28th Sep '11 10:44:04 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Yeah, I think the Seiza stuff needs to go on the TRS list just for sorting and for making up a supertrope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Tsundere pet.
"Yes, and no. It generally combines the two because blood and intimacy are both part of the whole vampire thing."
Finger-Suck Healing: The Western examples involving vampires are not about Intimate Healing, they're about vampires being attracted to blood (Dracula, Interview With The Vampire); the Interview With The Vampire one ends with the suck-ee getting killed. The Mick Jagger reference seems to be Licking the Blade rather than this.
I think Seiza Squirm is perfectly valid; it's an uncomfortable position and hard to maintain. Not sure if we need a Seiza supertrope; do we have a trope for formal posture? (And I don't know of a third seiza trope.)
Anyway, back to the main event:
- Lightning Glare - I think this is general, it goes back to at least Krazy Kat
- Love Chart - Japanese, not anime-specific.
- Luminescent Blush - general
- Mad Lib Anime Title - general Japanese-media titling
- Moe Stare (stereotypical "cute moe girl" expression) - A Japanese "drawn" trope, I suppose.
- Noblewoman's Laugh - Japanese, not anime-specific. Needs a bit of a rewrite; this is about how a specific sound effect (ほほほ) corresponds to a type of laugh (ho ho ho) associated with a specific character type (a refined upper-class woman); see this article
. The association with "evil" comes about because this type is usually cast as an antagonist. The Western examples are mostly "female character does Evil Laugh", which is different.
- Original Video Animation - goes wherever the other industry/marketing/adaptation tropes go
- Otaku O'Clock - ditto, I'd say
- Patient Childhood Love Interest - general
- Paper Cutting - general
- Paper Master - Not anime-specific. In Japanese media, this is usually depicted in ways strongly connected to traditional paper religious/magical stuff, and so becomes functionally a Japanese trope. It's also used in the West but Western usages seem unrelated, probably independently developed.
- Petal Power - general, although much more common in Japanese media
- Pointless Bandaid - general
- Portmanteau Series Nickname - Japanese, not anime-specific. Might go with the industry tropes.
- Pretty Freeloaders - general, although much more common in Japanese media
- Quivering Eyes - general, although Western works tend to play it ironically or for exaggeration
- Rain Aura - general animation/drawn trope
- Rules Of Anime - Just for Fun
- Running Sequence - I think this is anime-specific
- Sideways Smile - general animation/drawn trope
- "Silly Me" Gesture - The specific, formalized version of this as described in the writeup is Japanese, but not anime-specific.
- Sleep-Mode Size - I think this is originally Japanese, but not anime-specific.
- Smashing Watermelons - Japanese, not anime-specific.
- Sparkling Stream of Tears - I think this is originally Japanese, might even be originally from anime - not sure.
- Standard Bleeding Spots - no clue
- Standing in the Hall - Japanese, not anime-specific.
- Surprise Santa Encounter - Japanese, not anime-specific.
- Swirling Dust - I think this is originally Japanese but I'm not sure it's originally from anime; it shows up in manga but I don't know the direction of influence.
- This And That - Japanese, not anime-specific.
- The Tokyo Fireball - Japanese, but I think this originates in Toku (special-effects live-action)
- Transfer Student Uniforms - Japanese, not anime-specific.
- Twisted-Knee Collapse - I think this is referring to a specific pose, in which case it's badly titled and could use a re-write. The pose is Japanese but not anime-specific.
- Widget Series - Japanese by definition but part of the industry/marketing group of tropes.
edited 28th Sep '11 11:57:44 AM by lebrel
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
- Love Chart - Large percentage of Western examples says it's a general trope.
- Standard Bleeding Spots - General but written anime specific.
Tsundere pet.
x5? "Cute Little Fangs - Has a large chunk of Western examples that have nothing to do with anime."
Yeah, but most of those are vampires, Petting-Zoo People, or real people with "tiger teeth", and aren't necessarily played for cuteness. The idea of "let's have this girl show a little eyetooth - it'll be adorable" is I think Japanese in origin.
edited 28th Sep '11 12:09:20 PM by lebrel
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Tsundere pet.
Love Chart: The Western examples are mostly either anime/manga influenced (Scott Pilgrim), or dubious examples that focus on blood/marriage relationships (X-Men), not on "who has a crush on who".
[edit] Part of the problem may be that we don't seem to have a trope for "work includes a family tree diagram to help you keep the characters straight"; maybe I should YKKTW one....
edited 28th Sep '11 12:17:25 PM by lebrel
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Tsundere pet.
More; I think this is all of them. I remember seeing some tropes that I think should be on one of these indexes but aren't on the sandbox; I'll see if I can find them.
Tropes on the Remove list on which I have comments (the rest of the Remove list is OK by me):
- Finger Twiddling - As written, it is a Japanese trope, but needs a rename if it is going to be about that trope. (see previous posts)
- I Am Your Opponent - Specifically about a Japanese Stock Phrase, therefore should be Japanese Trope.
- Macekre - An audience-reaction trope that is specifically about anime adaptations, dunno how this should be categorized
- Overtook the Manga - Could be generalized; if so, needs a rename
- Returning the Handkerchief - Two things going on here: 1) a Japanese plot, or the skeleton of one, which pretty much doesn't exist in the West because we don't carry cloth handkerchiefs anymore; and 2) the old Victorian "dropped the handkerchief" gag, which I think is different. Maybe we need a Romantic Handkerchiefs supertrope.
- Tournament Arc - Is there a Shounen Tropes Index? 'Coz this totally needs to be on it…
- Wind Turbine Power - This is a setting/scenery trope, not Japanese, needs to be on a different set of indexes
General Animation/Drawn Tropes list:
- Anime Anatomy - general, needs rename
- Cute Little Fangs - Japanese visual trope (see previous posts)
- Inaction Sequence - keep as anime-specifc adaptation trope (see previous posts)
- Oddly Visible Eyebrows - Not sure… (see previous posts)
- Star System - general, I guess
Japanese Tropes list (otherwise OK):
- Robeast - Not entirely getting this one. Is it supposed to be a robot or not?
Japanese Visual Art Tropes (otherwise OK):
- Big Ol' Eyebrows - I'd argue this one is general.
- Frills of Justice - should be Japanese Tropes because it's not limited to drawn works
Anime Tropes list: This might better be the "Anime industry and marketing tropes index" for all the Anime First-type articles
Needs work/In TRS list:
- Anime Accent Absence - Dunno
- Anime Catholicism - Part of the new Anime Reality index, which is "stereotypes about X as seen in Japanese media", so keep as Japanese Trope
- Arc Break - dunno
- Chaste Teens - general
- Inverted Portrait - dunno
- Losing Face - a valid Japanese visual tope, needs a rewrite (since it occurs more broadly than the suggested situation) and maybe reneame
- Loud Speaker Truck - refers to a specifically Japanese phenomenon (public service announcements delivered by a Loudspeaker Truck), then makes it really specific (must fill in embarrassing moment); maybe needs a rewrite?
- Magical Girl Queenliness Test - I've seen this setup a lot and I can see the bones of a trope in there (the Plot Justification for having a Magical Girl show up on earth and start wreaking havoc), but needs a rewrite at least
- Ondo - looks like material for a Useful Notes or Trivia page
- Panty Fighter - I think this is a legitimate if loosely-defined genre (or "genre"): fighting show/fighting game that has mostly female characters and features immense amounts of fanservice. (cough*Strike Witches*cough) Japanese but not anime-specific.
- Shonen Upgrade - This is totally a Shonen Fighting Series thing, but it needs a clearer description
- Short Anime Movie - I'd be inclined to keep as an Anime Industry trope, maybe tighten up the description
- Shy Blue-Haired Girl - I'm going with Japanese characterization trope, needs cleanup
- Theme Deck - not entirely sure what this is supposed to be…
- Visual Novel Shot - Japanese trope, maybe Japanese Visual trope (see previous posts)
Stragglers:
- Airplane of Love - dunno
- Bishie Sparkle - Japanese in origin, almost certainly from Shoujo manga
- Bishōnen Line - I think this is Japanese in origin, from videogames first?
- Caught the Heart on His Sleeve - general
- Chains of Love - Japanese visual trope, not anime-specific
- Class is in Room X01 - I think this is Japan-specifc but definitely not anime-specific
- Excited Episode Title!! - The specific naming pattern seems to be a Japanese thing. The Western examples seem mostly Long Title or Punctuated! For! Emphasis! and could use some cleanup.
- Eye Catch - A subtrope of Ad Bumpers, and could use more definition if not a merge: the main difference seems to be that they're usually made by the production studio rather than the network, and may be customized for each episode. The name Eye Catch (in Gratuitous English) is specific to Japanese TV, though. Not anime-specific since they're also used for other types of TV.
- Face Fault - dunno, I can't actually remember ever having seen this
- Giving Up the Ghost - Visual trope, not anime-specific, do I think it is Japanese (the western version is the little death's-head over the person's head)
- Instant Cosplay Surprise - Overwhelmingly more likely in Japanese media (in the form described, anyway), but probably not Japan-specific. Certainly not anime-specific.
- Kiai - A martial-arts trope but not specifically a Japanese one
- Last Episode Theme Reprise - dunno
- Moe Couplet - not entirely getting this one
edited 28th Sep '11 2:57:10 PM by lebrel
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Ok, you weren't around here for the last one, but you're really spamming the thread in a way that makes it almost impossible to reply to you. Let's just do four or five at a time, and work down the list like we did last time. It worked much better than this is.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
That is exactly what I wanted to say too.
Tsundere pet.
OK, sorry. I've put some thoughts on the UsefulNotes.Japan page, on my page Tropers.Lebrel for when/if we get around to that.
edited 28th Sep '11 4:00:18 PM by lebrel
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
I see the Awesomeness.
Guys, check the sections that aren't "needs sorting". If you disagree with where I put it, move it to "needs sorting". We can run through the "needs sorting" section in blocks of five like we did in the last thread. It's a lot easier than doing walls of text.
One of the reasons I want to remove the name Anime or Manga from the index name is that I feel that an index of tropes and a medium category sharing a name leads to a larger number of tropes being labeled medium specific. Hence, why I went with a broad name like Japanese Visual Arts which should include the visual style of things like anime, manga, fanart the whole shebang, but is still distant from the actual name.
For the record, I left my personal reasonings for some of the tropes places in parenthesis. These aren't "official" judgements, just quick runs. I'll let people decide which tropes they want to argue about tomorrow/today, and I'll bring up the first five of the "needs to be sorted" group after I get back from work.
If no one objects, I'll continue to run the thing like I did last time. If you weren't here for last time, I'll run over the process/goals we used.
1) The index is not for "things used by anime", it should be tropes from anime or used exclusively (or nearly so) by anime.
2) Unlike the previous thread (Stock Japanese Characters), this is a more complex index, so it's not as simple as "keep, remove, TRS" necessitating the different areas.
3) Based on perusing the index, several different types of tropes got grouped here. I used several index groups that I felt were the most likely areas to stick the tropes. More can be added if desired (I suspect "move to Translation Tropes" is going to be one of them).
4) The process of sorting will be done by me (or whoever is the arbitrator) grabbing the first five or so tropes at the top of the "needs to be sorted list" and we discuss where we think that trope should end up.
5) Each decision should be roughly one way: to the sorted pile, or to the TRS pile (which will be sorted in the TRS). While no decision is permanent, constantly rehashing the same arguments gets us bogged down.
6) Once a (group of) tropes location has been determined, I will move it to the appropriate location.
7) Any trope that needs lots of argument time will be moved to the bottom of the "needs to be sorted" pile and will be rehashed once the low hanging fruit has been picked.
8) I will try to stop by at least once a day for arguments, and will make sure that the thread is bumped at least once per day.
Fight smart, not fair.
Cure Candy
A lot of those in the remove column should stay actually. Prefer to just move all to needs sorting.
And double indexing with Translation Tropes is not a bad thing, it does not have to be one or the other... Just one index is a bad thing actually. (and removing it's only index would be worse)
And would prefer combining this list with Manga Effects and Useful Notes:Japan then sortting as a lot of tropes there would go on these new pages.
edited 29th Sep '11 3:01:34 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
The only trope on the remove that is specific to anime is Red Eye. Finger Twidling needs a TRS and a new name for the specific variant, but all the rest have a large chunk of examples from other media. A good number of them are written as anime specific by myopic fans, but saying anime only a lot in the description does not make it so.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
As with the Stock Japanese Characters index, we had some overzealous fans who didn't quite get that the index was not for "tropes that have been used by Anime at some point" but for tropes originating in Japan. However, going over the index has lead me to believe that it's a trainwreck of about four or five different indexes that it should be.
I think we need to, at the least, break off Translation Tropes, Japanese Tropes, Japanese Visual Art Tropes and possibly others.
I took a preliminary pass on the Sandbox.Anime Tropes page and sorted them as I felt necessary. Before we start sending them to their final location, please make a pass over the ones I sorted so they can be moved to the "discussing" section.
Fight smart, not fair.