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First, let me make it clear that shutting down OTC altogether would not harm the wiki's mission in any way. It is being hosted solely out of courtesy toward the interests of tropers wanting to have a conversation.

Secondly, if OTC regulars don't start to report derails and stop falling for troll bait, in short, become more self moderating and participating more in bringing in moderation help when needed, I'll have no problem at all with shutting it down.

Thirdly, I'll underscore that falling for troll tactics is the fault of the fish. This forum is expected to be more savvy, not less. Stop being made fools of.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#426: Dec 24th 2011 at 11:56:05 AM

We have been trying, above all else, to avoid having to deal with that type of scenario.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#427: Dec 24th 2011 at 12:17:16 PM

Fair deal, I withdraw the suggestion.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#428: Dec 29th 2011 at 10:19:49 PM

On the subject of forum vs. main site, I came for the main site, but got sucked into, and stayed for the forum(partially b/c of my editing ban due to my doing a REALLY poor job of double-checking my edits). I just really like the community, most people are decent and all. It'd really suck if it got taken away, but I understand the reasoning behind stopping the OTC section. Theres some people that seems to stick around just to fight on it, and some that just get their blood boiling by certain thing that leads to fights, and that's really not doing anything beneficial.

I'm baaaaaaack
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#429: Dec 29th 2011 at 11:40:57 PM

[up]I just don't see why a serious business section has to be so much controversy. It's going to be either here or elsewhere where it's not as contained.

Now using Trivialis handle.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#430: Dec 31st 2011 at 10:19:14 AM

Thats the only reason section like that exist. It's either a contained spot you can keep an eye on, or off-topic subjects spread across the rest where you have to hunt for them.

It sucks people can't be civil about it though.

I'm baaaaaaack
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#431: Jan 14th 2012 at 1:36:32 PM

I'm a returning veteran, so maybe I can say something that can give a different perspective.

Well this is depressing. I left this forum just as this situation got started up. Three months later I return and find it raging on more or less as I left it.

Mostly the same posters too; we don't seem to have gained any new blood in OTC; its 95% veterans. Which isn't indicative of an attractive forum, or one thats friendly to newbies.

What, exactly, is the deep-seated, unnavigateable problem?

I'd throw my hat into the moderator ring, but I can't help but wonder if I'm part of the 'problem' crowd... I left the site originally because I finally managed to get myself thumped. Only happened once but it gave me a fright. sad

On the subject of the forums helping the site, I do trope from time to time, and maintain my watchlist, and the OTC forums are what tends to keep me on this site. I'd imagine many others are the same. I would like to see more newcomers around here though, and the idea of the activities of any part of the forum putting people off disturbs me greatly. Things can get a bit hairy in some threads, though the vast majority of the time they seem to calm themselves down almost as fast as the furore picks up.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
TheProffesor The Professor from USA Since: Jan, 2011
#432: Jan 14th 2012 at 3:11:21 PM

OTC=/=The whole forums.

The rest of the forums seem perfectly fine to me. There is just some bad blood in this particular section.

JBridge null from Alameda, CA Since: Jan, 2001
null
#433: Jan 15th 2012 at 7:58:47 PM

Didn't Fast Eddie shut down IJBM a lot quicker because of exactly whats wrong with OTC?

I mean, you didn't really give IJBM a chance before.

There's no space in the name.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apacalypse. from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
#434: Jan 15th 2012 at 8:01:51 PM

IJBM Persisted for quite a while before it got axed. It took it a fair amount of time to be shut down completely.

Who watches the watchmen?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#435: Jan 15th 2012 at 8:38:30 PM

IJBM was around for a very long time. It was older than Image Pickin' is.

Fight smart, not fair.
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#436: Jan 17th 2012 at 9:41:11 PM

Some threads have arbitrarily begun declaring that they haven't been vetted for posting by the staff, even though we'd been posting for a while before that happened. Is there a reason for this?

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#437: Jan 17th 2012 at 9:44:09 PM

[up] There's already an announcement on the left, which I'm guessing is in response to some combination of hollars/pms/FE's test thread.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#438: Jan 17th 2012 at 9:45:20 PM

Check the wiki news thing on the side. Bug, just holler to get it unlocked.

Fight smart, not fair.
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#439: Jan 17th 2012 at 9:56:14 PM

It's some new thing with the wiki in an attempt to improve OTC.

~waves hand about~

We'll see if it actually does any good. I'm losing optimism rapidly.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#440: Jan 17th 2012 at 11:01:33 PM

I might as well drop the info here, as well.

Basically, we imposed a new rule on OTC (it was discussed in the "appeal to moderation" thread simultaneously with the new mod nomination) that says that when a thread is created, no one is allowed to post in it until a mod has seen it. So when you create a thread, the mods get a Holler, and when one of us reads it, unless we do something about the thread (like nuke it or lock it,) it's good to go.

This helps us avoid many kinds of problems.

Now, there was a bug in the system and when the bug was fixed, all threads that had been created after the rule change became locked again. If you see a thread where you can't post and no reason is given, holler it and we'll open it right back up (or don't, depending on the thread.)

edited 17th Jan '12 11:02:11 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
WOLFJUSTICE FB;GM Since: Mar, 2011
FB;GM
#441: Jan 25th 2012 at 12:45:39 AM

Perhaps I'm just being ignorant here, but wouldn't the issue of self-moderation be solved right quick if there were simply a sufficient number of trustworthy and enthusiastic moderators added to the 'staff'?

I mean, I moderated a fansite forum for years and getting eager people to check up on their assigned forums and enforce site rules in accordance with the 'staff' code of conduct was rarely an issue.

[insert pretension here]
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#442: Jan 25th 2012 at 1:13:24 AM

It took our administration a while to conclude that more mods were the best solution.

The options that were considered ranged from simply restricting the fora to be only about media and the site itself, completely removing everything that wasn't directly linked to the site's mission, to getting more mods.

It was thought, however, that keeping the social part of the site was a good idea because people enjoy it and it helps people connect to the site in more ways than one.

So the problem became: what to do with the parts of the fora that were a lot of work to maintain. The initial hope of the administration was that encouraging people to use the Holler more often would've done the trick. By directing people towards more active participation in the prevention of uncivility, problems could've been detected and potentially averted before they blew out of hand.

This has helped a lot, but it didn't do the trick entirely. There simply weren't enough mods to keep watch over the fora without the rest of the administration having to divert to the fora too much attention that they would rather have given the Wiki.

So finally, three new mods were introduced; one to focus on TRS, two for OTC (though all of us still look after every part of the site, and the focus we were assigned is just that, and not a restriction.)

The consensus among the mods seems to be that we're doing great now, and no one is getting burnt out because of stupid stuff in the fora.

By the way, getting people who wanted to become mods wasn't really too much of a problem; many candidates turned up in the Crowner we had, and when some (like me) were nominated without their knowledge, everyone obviously had the option of refusing the job and then they'd just be removed from the Crowner. The two candidates with the most support were made into mods, and the third new mod was selected by the administration in another discussion that wasn't related to the OTC mod business but more or less happened to be at the same time.

edited 25th Jan '12 1:16:24 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#443: Feb 11th 2012 at 3:59:51 PM

So... when do topics typically open?

Now using Trivialis handle.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#444: Feb 11th 2012 at 5:12:48 PM

We try to open OTC threads as soon as possible. When a thread does not conform to our standards, we nuke it or send a PM to the OP to try to improve it. Opening or killing a thread typically takes about a day or maybe less.

If a mod doesn't feel that they can make a call on a particular thread, they take it up with the other mods, and these are the threads where it takes a while for us to come to a decision.

I hope this answers your question.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#445: Feb 11th 2012 at 8:18:20 PM

Should we holler if a thread goes unnoticed for long?

Now using Trivialis handle.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#446: Feb 12th 2012 at 4:56:34 AM

Well, it won't do any harm. Sure, Why Not?.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
CannonGerbil Fledging Supervillian from SPACE Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Fledging Supervillian
#447: Feb 18th 2012 at 7:19:53 AM

This might be just me speaking out of my arse here, but wouldn't most of the problems with the current OTC board be solved by creating a new "Serious discussions board" that's basically OTC but without the "No derails" rule? Way I understand it, most of the problems with policing this board is linked more towards derails than actual trolling, and since the only other board that is even close to accomodating the type of threads that are placed in OTC is Yackfest, which is, to pharaphrase, /b/ - the anonymity...

I don't know, it just seems like a worthwhile train of thought.

ALL HAIL THE WARGERBIL!
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#448: Feb 18th 2012 at 7:30:14 AM

Most of the problems with OTC have nothing to do with derails - at least, not directly. Instead, the problems we have are about people not debating in good faith, people making things personal, people using needlessly inflammatory and offensive language and examples, and generally the tendency of some people to be very emotional all the time.

If everyone would read their post before sending it and then reading it again, but this time as if it was a post by someone else directed at them, we wouldn't have needed new mods. If people would think "am I being needlessly emotional, inflammatory or personal here?" and "would I find this post acceptable if it was made by someone else?," we wouldn't have a problem.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#449: Feb 19th 2012 at 11:23:28 PM

[up]Best Of nails it here. I stopped posting when trashed in OTC for exactly this reason, and have since taken to giving my post a quick scan before hitting "send" NOTE

.

We all need to do this. OTC would improve markedly (without any mod interference I might add) if we did.

edited 19th Feb '12 11:23:58 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Teraus Awesome Lightning Mantra from The Origin of Dreams Since: Jul, 2011
Awesome Lightning Mantra
#450: Mar 5th 2012 at 8:14:09 PM

Hmph... Just created a thread. "This thread has been nuked. Bitching thread"

Give me a break... It was supposed to be a serious discussion. I didn't offend anyone, I simply expressed my disgust for an idea. The message they left behind is far more disrespectful and annoying.

I'll try again.

edited 5th Mar '12 8:28:04 PM by Teraus

"You cannot judge a system if your judgement is determined by the system."

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