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An immortal society: What would it look like?

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JesusSaves Since: Aug, 2011
#26: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:00:10 PM

Well, he left us the scalpel and a book in code of how to use it (which we're decoding little by little). I'm sure we're meant to try experimenting, otherwise He wouldn't have left the scalpel on our reach.

As for Grace... well, God's permission is necessary for everything that ever happens ever. So... it's such a universal factor, I don't think we can account for it either in positive or in negative. Saying we don't need Grace to act would be the same as saying we don't need spacetime to move, it's just not possible. Or am I confusing things?

And this thread is about how an immortal society would look, and I don't want to get thumped. So...

I think Permutation City is an interesting protrayal...

An action is not virtuous merely because it is unpleasant to do.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#27: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:18:06 PM

Well, not all that can be done should be done — if we go by the Garden of Eden allegory, thinking otherwise was kind of what got us into this mess to begin with tongue. But I agree, we are getting a bit offtopic.

As for "immortal" societies... I think that the potrayal by Cordwainer Smith in his Instrumentality of Mankind series is pretty interesting. Most people are not actually immortal — there is an immortality serum, but commoners only get it for 400 years —, and people live in luxury and wealth but with in a very regimented society. It's not exactly a dystopia, at least not for the humans*

, but it's also far from being an utopia. Most of all, most people seem to lack a sense of purpose: they live bored, and die bored.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#28: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:20:21 PM

That actually does sound like a dystopia... I think that immortals would simply find their sense of purpose elsewhere; it's too integral a part of humanity to ignore.

JesusSaves Since: Aug, 2011
#29: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:28:47 PM

Antidote to Boredom: creative works that interact with a public, and competitions, with deadlines.

An action is not virtuous merely because it is unpleasant to do.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#30: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:30:19 PM

The lack of purpose is not really presented as a consequence of longevity, though — it seems more to be a consequence of overcoddling and overcontrolling by part of the government, and the lack of any sort of risk or novelty.

In one of the later stories, people start partying when Cholera is reintroduced in the wild, because it means that their lives and their durations will not be as much predictable anymore.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#31: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:30:35 PM

Technically speaking, if we are too assume a divine creator (I don't, for the record, but to each his own) then we can still do anything, we'll be judged for it eventually.

People already live bored and die bored, so that isn't much of a change...

I wonder if it would lead to more feeling of purpose or less.

On the one hand you could always say "I'll get to it next century" till the heat death of the universe. On the other hand you could say "I literally have all the time in the universe, why don't I try figuring out how X works?"

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#32: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:32:22 PM

People as a whole can't live without purpose and still be happy; immortality wouldn't affect this at all.

edited 17th Sep '11 3:32:58 PM by tropetown

JesusSaves Since: Aug, 2011
#33: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:33:35 PM

[up][up][up]You know, I don't agree much about Eliezer Yudkowsky's raging antitheism, but his Laws of Fun are a prety good guideline for avoiding a boring future for immortals. The guy can really be brilliant when he's not raging about whatever personal issues he has with religion.

[up]You mean they can, right? Yeah, MMORPG should take care of the less creative types... and give a job to the more creative ones.

edited 17th Sep '11 3:36:41 PM by JesusSaves

An action is not virtuous merely because it is unpleasant to do.
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#34: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:40:07 PM

Meh. We can get other purposes along the way of our immortal lives.

JesusSaves Since: Aug, 2011
#36: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:46:11 PM

I'm not so sure. I want to write one, but there just isn't a story I want to tell...

An action is not virtuous merely because it is unpleasant to do.
tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#37: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:47:15 PM

[up][up][up][up] An MMORPG would give them some sort of purpose while playing it; if that's all they had going on in their life, though, I doubt they'd be happy. Some might, most wouldn't.

edited 17th Sep '11 3:47:25 PM by tropetown

Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#38: Sep 17th 2011 at 5:32:41 PM

The few children people would be allowed to have would be absolutely spoiled. They'd be a rarity -> center of attention -> spoiled kid. Unless we'd have the sense to regulate access to children.

That is until we manage to build self sufficent spacecraft, which would offer a lot more room. Or alternatively get to enough sufficently earthlike planets for room to be a non-issue.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
Jauce Since: Oct, 2010
#39: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:08:11 PM

A society of true immortals would be very different from a society of people with biological immortality. If it's merely biological immortality, then society wouldn't be too different, except there would be a thriving euthanasia industry. But if it's true immortality.. well eventually everyone would go insane from an eternity of meaningless existence.

mailedbypostman complete noob from behind you Since: May, 2010
complete noob
#40: Sep 18th 2011 at 12:23:10 AM

I would not want to live on this planet anymore.

CannonGerbil Fledging Supervillian from SPACE Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Fledging Supervillian
#41: Sep 18th 2011 at 5:46:51 AM

Well, for starters, unless we can develop a method for "flushing" our brains every so often, society is going to end up stagnating, only changing in response to extreme environmental changes, such as the invention of teleporters or some such.

Society is going to change alot. And I mean alot. Like, completely irrecognizable from before. When you think about it, a large percentage of our society is based upon the concept that people eventually die. When people suddenly stop dying, anything that relies on mortality or the fear of mortality is going to go. I'm not just talking obvious stuff like insurance and burial services; think about how promotion in a company works, for instance. Slots only open in a company when someone currently within it leaves, either through resignation/retirement/transfer, or when he dies. Now, practically no one would voluntarily leave an important, high paying position, which means that they only way they will leave are by screwing up so badly that they are forced to leave the company out of shame, or they die or otherwise become incapable of fulfilling their jobs for some reason, due to being infirm or senile. But now that no one dies any more (Presumably, they don't suffer from senility either, otherwise they would effectively be longer-lived humans, and thus no different from what we have today) the only way for someone at the top to leave would either be through doing something really, really stupid, or by way of tragic "accidents".

In my opinion, there'll probably end up being some sort of "maximum amount of time someone can be in the same position" law, much like current presidential term limits. Or we'll end up with some kind "wizard's academy" scenario where everyone in the company tries to lure those above them into "tragic accidents" while simultaneously trying their best to avoid falling into any "tragic accidents" themselves.

As for religion, it'll probably end up going through a WHOLE lot of changes and restructuring. There'd be those who would denounce the new immortality as against their faith or what have you, and actively refuse to allow any of their members to be "immortalized". These ones will either end up dying out in a couple of generations or so, or become the new terror cells of the future.

There would be those who hold no opinions either way about being immortal, and allow their adherents to decide for themselves whether they would embrace immortality or not. These ones will probably end up having all immortal members within a few generations, if only because only the immortal ones will still be alive at that point.

Yet others will embrace immortality, and restructure themselves to deal with the new reality of an undying population brings to the table. These ones will probably end up being the most long lives religions, if only because all it's adherents will be immortal, and thus will end up ensuring that the religion never dies.

Of course, there would also be the ones newly created in response to the immortal population, the ones who split into those who support immortality and those who don't, the ones who end up dying due to being unable to reconcile their old views with the new reality, etc etc. Either way, there will be alot of changes and restructuring within religion, and when the dust settles, Religion as we know it will cease to exists, or, at the very least, be very, VERY, different from what we currently have.

PS:Damn, that turned out to be alot longer than I intended.

ALL HAIL THE WARGERBIL!
JesusSaves Since: Aug, 2011
#42: Sep 18th 2011 at 7:37:25 AM

There was a link I posted earlier. Some of the later comments suggest strongly that people haven't read those contents, which are highly relevant to the discussion at hand. I thought I'd make it easier for them by posting the relevant but here. It's a bit long, and quite profound, but I think it'd greatly improve the discussion, since it is very manifest that great thought has been given to this particular topic by the author.

So this is Utopia, is it? Well
I beg your pardon, I thought it was Hell.
— Sir Max Beerholm, verse entitled
In a Copy of More's (or Shaw's or Wells's or Plato's or Anybody's) Utopia

This is a shorter summary of the Fun Theory Sequence with all the background theory left out - just the compressed advice to the would-be author or futurist who wishes to imagine a world where people might actually want to live:

  • Think of a typical day in the life of someone who's been adapting to Utopia for a while. Don't anchor on the first moment of "hearing the good news". Heaven's "You'll never have to work again, and the streets are paved with gold!" sounds like good news to a tired and poverty-stricken peasant, but two months later it might not be so much fun.

  • Beware of packing your Utopia with things you think people should do that aren't actually fun. Again, consider Christian Heaven: singing hymns doesn't sound like loads of endless fun, but you're supposed to enjoy praying, so no one can point this out.

  • Making a video game easier doesn't always improve it. The same holds true of a life. Think in terms of clearing out low-quality drudgery to make way for high-quality challenge, rather than eliminating work.

  • Life should contain novelty - experiences you haven't encountered before, preferably teaching you something you didn't already know. If there isn't a sufficient supply of novelty (relative to the speed at which you generalize), you'll get bored.

  • People should get smarter at a rate sufficient to integrate their old experiences, but not so much smarter so fast that they can't integrate their new intelligence. Being smarter means you get bored faster, but you can also tackle new challenges you couldn't understand before.

  • People should live in a world that fully engages their senses, their bodies, and their brains. This means either that the world resembles the ancestral savanna more than say a windowless office; or alternatively, that brains and bodies have changed to be fully engaged by different kinds of complicated challenges and environments. (Fictions intended to entertain a human audience should concentrate primarily on the former option.)

  • Timothy Ferris: "What is the opposite of happiness? Sadness? No. Just as love and hate are two sides of the same coin, so are happiness and sadness... The opposite of love is indifference, and the opposite of happiness is - here's the clincher - boredom... The question you should be asking isn't 'What do I want?' or 'What are my goals?' but 'What would excite me?'... Living like a millionaire requires doing interesting things and not just owning enviable things."

  • Any particular individual's life should get better and better over time.

  • You should not know exactly what improvements the future holds, although you should look forward to finding out. The actual event should come as a pleasant surprise.

  • Our hunter-gatherer ancestors strung their own bows, wove their own baskets and whittled their own flutes; then they did their own hunting, their own gathering and played their own music. Futuristic Utopias are often depicted as offering more and more neat buttons that do less and less comprehensible things for you. Ask not what interesting things Utopia can do for people; ask rather what interesting things the inhabitants could do for themselves - with their own brains, their own bodies, or tools they understand how to build.

  • Living in Eutopia should make people stronger, not weaker, over time. The inhabitants should appear more formidable than the people of our own world, not less.

  • Life should not be broken up into a series of disconnected episodes with no long-term consequences. No matter how sensual or complex, playing one really great video game after another, does not make a life story.

  • People should make their own destinies; their lives should not be choreographed to the point that they no longer need to imagine, plan and navigate their own futures. Citizens should not be the pawns of more powerful gods, still less their sculpted material. One simple solution would be to have the world work by stable rules that are the same for everyone, where the burden of Eutopia is carried by a good initial choice of rules, rather than by any optimization pressure applied to individual lives.

  • Human minds should not have to play on a level field with vastly superior entities. Most people don't like being overshadowed. Gods destroy a human protagonist's "main character" status; this is undesirable in fiction and probably in real life. (E.g.: C. S. Lewis's Narnia, Iain Banks's Culture.) Either change people's emotional makeup so that they don't mind being unnecessary, or keep the gods way off their playing field. Fictional stories intended for human audiences cannot do the former. (And in real life, you probably can have powerful A.I.s that are neither sentient nor meddlesome. See the main post and its prerequisites.)

  • Trying to compete on a single flat playing field with six billion other humans also creates problems. Our ancestors lived in bands of around 50 people. Today the media is constantly bombarding us with news of exceptionally rich and pretty people as if they lived next door to us; and very few people get a chance to be the best at any specialty.

  • Our ancestors also had some degree of genuine control over their band's politics. Contrast to modern nation-states where almost no one knows the President on a personal level or could argue Congress out of a bad decision. (Though that doesn't stop people from arguing as loudly as if they still lived in a 50-person band.)

  • Offering people more options is not always helping them (especially if the option is something they couldn't do for themselves). Losses are more painful than the corresponding gains, so if choices are different along many dimensions and only one choice can be taken, people tend to focus on the loss of the road not taken. Offering a road that bypasses a challenge makes the challenge feel less real, even if the cheat is diligently refused. It is also a sad fact that humans predictably make certain kinds of mistakes. Don't assume that building more choice into your Utopia is necessarily an improvement because "people can always just say no". This sounds reassuring to an outside reader - "Don't worry, you'll decide! You trust yourself, right?" - but might not be much fun to actually live with.

  • Extreme example of the above: being constantly offered huge temptations that are incredibly dangerous - a completely realistic virtual world, or very addictive and pleasurable drugs. You can never allow yourself a single moment of willpower failure over your whole life. (E.g.: John C. Wright's Golden Oecumene.)

  • Conversely, when people are grown strong enough to shoot off their feet without external help, stopping them may be too much interference. Hopefully they'll then be smart enough not to: By the time they can build the gun, they'll know what happens if they pull the gun, and won't need a smothering safety blanket. If that's the theory, then dangerous options need correspondingly difficult locks. (Devil's Offers.)

  • Telling people truths they haven't yet figured out for themselves, is not always helping them.

  • Brains are some of the most complicated things in the world. Thus, other humans (other minds) are some of the most complicated things we deal with. For us, this interaction has a unique character because of the sympathy we feel for others - the way that our brain tends to align with their brain - rather than our brain just treating other brains as big complicated machines with levers to pull. Reducing the need for people to interact with other people reduces the complexity of human existence; this is a step in the wrong direction. For example, resist the temptation to simplify people's lives by offering them artificially perfect sexual/romantic partners.

  • But admittedly, humanity does have a statistical sex problem: the male distribution of attributes doesn't harmonize with the female distribution of desires, or vice versa. Not everything in Eutopia should be easy - but it shouldn't be pointlessly, unresolvably frustrating either. (This is a general principle.) So imagine nudging the distributions to make the problem solvable - rather than waving a magic wand and solving everything instantly.

  • In general, tampering with brains, minds, emotions, and personalities is way more fraught on every possible level of ethics and difficulty, than tampering with bodies and environments. Always ask what you can do by messing with the environment before you imagine messing with minds. Then prefer small cognitive changes to big ones. You're not just outrunning your human audience, you're outrunning your own imagination.

  • In this present world, there is an imbalance between pleasure and pain. An unskilled torturer with simple tools can create worse pain in thirty seconds, than an extremely skilled sexual artist can create pleasure in thirty minutes. One response would be to remedy the imbalance - to have the world contain more joy than sorrow. Pain might exist, but not pointless endless unendurable pain. Mistakes would have more proportionate penalties: You might touch a hot stove and end up with a painful blister; but not glance away for two seconds and spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair. The people would be stronger, less exhausted. This path would eliminate mind-destroying pain, and make pleasure more abundant. Another path would eliminate pain entirely. Whatever the relative merits of the real-world proposals, fictional stories cannot take the second path.

  • George Orwell once observed that Utopias are chiefly concerned with avoiding fuss. Don't be afraid to write a loud Eutopia that might wake up the neighbors.

  • George Orwell observed that "The inhabitants of perfect universes seem to have no spontaneous gaiety and are usually somewhat repulsive into the bargain." If you write a story and your characters turn out like this, it probably reflects some much deeper flaw that can't be fixed by having the State hire a few clowns.

  • Ben Franklin, yanked into our own era, would be surprised and delighted by some aspects of his Future. Other aspects would horrify, disgust, and frighten him; and this is not because our world has gone wrong, but because it has improved relative to his time. Relatively few things would have gone just as Ben Franklin expected. If you imagine a world which your imagination finds familiar and comforting, it will inspire few others, and the whole exercise will lack integrity. Try to conceive of a genuinely better world in which you, yourself, would be shocked (at least at first) and out of place (at least at first).

  • Utopia and Dystopia are two sides of the same coin; both just confirm the moral sensibilities you started with. Whether the world is a libertarian utopia of government non-interference, or a hellish dystopia of government intrusion and regulation, you get to say "I was right all along." Don't just imagine something that conforms to your existing ideals of government, relationships, politics, work, or daily life. Find the better world that zogs instead of zigging or zagging. (To safeguard your sensibilities, you can tell yourself it's just an arguably better world but isn't really better than your favorite standard Utopia... but you'll know you're really doing it right if you find your ideals changing.)

  • If your Utopia still seems like an endless gloomy drudgery of existential angst no matter how much you try to brighten it, there's at least one major problem that you're entirely failing to focus on.

  • 'Tis a sad mind that cares about nothing except itself. In the modern-day world, if an altruist looks around, their eye is caught by large groups of people in desperate jeopardy. People in a better world will not see this: A true Eutopia will run low on victims to be rescued. This doesn't imply that the inhabitants look around outside themselves and see nothing. They may care about friends and family, truth and freedom, common projects; outside minds, shared goals, and high ideals.

  • Still, a story that confronts the challenge of Eutopia should not just have the convenient plot of "The Dark Lord Sauron is about to invade and kill everybody". The would-be author will have to find something slightly less awful for his characters to legitimately care about. This is part of the challenge of showing that human progress is not the end of human stories, and that people not in imminent danger of death can still lead interesting lives. Those of you interested in confronting lethal planetary-sized dangers should focus on present-day real life.

edited 18th Sep '11 7:40:19 AM by JesusSaves

An action is not virtuous merely because it is unpleasant to do.
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