No Bad Plot, Just Bad Writing

"There are no bad plots, only bad writing"

I got this from the Bakematogari thread but how much of this is actually true? Are really no bad plots, just writers who didn't execute it too well.

I would say that with sufficiently epic writing you could make any plot entertaining, but it's certainly true that at any given level of writing, there's a plot you can pull off and a plot you can't.

I think what constitutes as bad writing is so situational and subjective that it's difficult to tell.

I'd say bad plots definitely exist. You may be the best writer in the world, but you still can't hide the Plot Holes if they are big enough. If your plot sucks then your plot sucks. Your technical writing skills have nothing to do with it.

But it's certainly possible to have good works with hole-ridden Excuse Plots; you just need to make the other attractions good enough to compensate.

Sure, but the plot remains bad. A work can be good without having a good plot.

Would The Pokemon Story or Agony In Pink be fixed with better writing?

edited 16th Sep '11 10:50:07 AM by Merlo

I strongly disagree, in part because of the question asked about "agony in pink." Plot is the bare bones of the story—what happens, why and when. There are many ways that this can go wrong. If what happens doesn't lead easily to why, or how, then you have the beginnings of a broken plot-line. If the "why" of the plot is not answered satisfactorily, then you have a "bad" plot. Bad plots leave readers confused and dissatisfied with the story.

Plotlines are as much a part of the writing process as dialogue and description. So there are bad plots. They are part of bad writing.

My belief is that the prose of a work can be the most beautiful in the world, but if it doesn't have a strong plot behind it, it's only poetry. Beautiful, yes, but that isn't what the readers want.

So there can be bad plots. The plot is the core of a story. Prose is only the skin and tissues.

I'd argue that the above only applies if you insist on playing the plot, however it is, seriously. Snarky Lemony Narrators, Lampshade Hangings and other such humour can make a terrible plot entertaining.

I think plots that are bad beyond redemption definitely exist, but are rare. Most writers, even mediocre writers, have the sense to avoid or improve them. Just my theory.

If it is a bad plot made entertaining by funny writing, is it still bad writing?

No. It's good writing, but with bad plot. These two can coexist.

@ Merlo: compare Agony in Pink to Celebrian. Both have "plots" that are cheap excuse for some gorn, but the former is at least written well enough that it reaches So Bad, It's Good level. The latter is an example of porn made boring.

The plot is part of the writing. So you can have good writing, except for the plot. Just like you can have a great plot with flat characters. A poor story that is well written is still, in the end, bad writing. Or perhaps it is merely good writing that would have been excellent if the plot didn't suck.

If you are a shutter bug, but not particularly accomplished, you probably have a lot of pictures that are "great, except for", or "amazing, if only", or "postcard-quality but. . ."

Perhaps I'm biased because most of what I've been reading lately has been fanfiction (with its infamously wonderful standards for, well, everything), but it strikes me that a story is a lot more easily ruined by poor prose than by a poor plot. I'll read Slice of Life stories that basically have nothing interesting ever happening to the characters, if the prose style and the characters and interactions are good enough; but something that's just not interestingly written is not interesting, regardless of the astounding plotlines. What I'm thinking of, admittedly, is the 'fanfiction scale' definition of bad prose, which means, well, that and feels as if it's poking me repeatedly in the eye.

It's possible to have good writing and a bad plot, but the bad plot will be too big of a flaw to ignore. A good plot with bad writing can be appreciated, but no one will want to read it.

You need both to be any good.

When I asked the question, only Scorpio got what I was saying. Plot is one part of writing, just as dialogue, characters and description is part of writing. Bad writing can mean your plot is bad and your dialogue is good. Bad writing can mean your description suffers but your plot lines are solid. This means it is very difficult to ever call your writing 10% good, but that's why they call it work when someone sits down to write.

We all cover up for our weaknesses by playing our strengths, at least a little bit. It's not much of a stretch for a skilled writer to make a broken plot palatable by focusing on the quality of the writing, or the character development, or whatever you're compensating with.

Eventually though, you're going to have to stop making everything else shiny to distract from plot holes and just fill them, if you want to get anywhere.

edited 16th Sep '11 7:29:17 PM by Dec

There are bad plots. There aren't bad themes. writting is part of a plot after all.

It's possible to have bad plotting like it's possible to have bad anything else. There's no such thing as conditional immunity from screwups.

Interestingly, few things are more heartbreaking for a fanfic reader than seeing a story with an angle that is new and intriguing, only for it to be soured with some bad prose/grammar/punctuation/etc. Or a story that starts with good prose, only to devolve over the course of a single chapter.

I think that a bad plot can be covered up by peppering it with zany events and Lampshade Hanging, but it's putting lipstick on the pig, as it were.

Boring writing =/= bad story all of the time. That's what plot bunnies are for!

edited 19th Sep '11 10:07:46 PM by BearyScary

Ori, you're saying the exact same thing everyone else is saying.

Isn't this concept basically the Fiction Identity Postulate?

For original fiction? Yes.

For fan fiction? That's... debatable.