Passion and Dreams.

Now before anyone asks, this ISN'T a thread about noctural emissions so get your minds out of the gutter.

The idea is that people always have very similar advice to give to people and usually focus on these two ideas. The idea of "passion" and the idea of "dreams".

Lets address the first point in its relation to social interaction. Passion seems to be defined as a generic kind of excitement or interest that anyone else decides is none creepy. Taxidermy or book binding are well out, but being passionate about tennis or some of the "arts" is considered very good.

The second point is "dreams" people are always being encouraged to "follow them and reach their dreams". OFC if this dream is of something generally agreed upon as horrible, such as a land without people who wear glasses (I'm looking at you Pol Pot), then its usually ignored. It tends to mean things like "owning my own business" or "getting a 5 day weekend".

What I think is missing from social intercourse is that a great deal of people seem to lack either one or other of these, and there seems to be very little people have to say to them in terms of creating anything different. I think the worst offender on this score is the "dreams" one, as people who lack an overall goal or plan tend to be pitied by those that do or expect other people to.

What I am essentially wondering On-Topic Conversations, is what do you think of these ideas? Do you think that people who lack an overall "dream" are worse off than people who do, for instance?

OTTOMH: Well, some people just live for the present or act in the present, and some of them definitely are just as well off as people who have long-term ideals, dreams, etc.

Of course, one would probably not get hurt by finding some purpose in what they will do/are doing.

They're of equal importance. A person with passion and goals is objectively better off than either a person with passion but no goals or a person with goals but no passion. P + !G and G + !P are not discernably different in value AFAICS — one has nowhere to go, the other has no compelling reason to get there.

As a side note: I think I'm passionate about stuff in general, which kinda explains why when people ask what I'm passionate about I'm like "uh, what?". I used to think I was passionate about nothing, but that's demonstrably not the case.

I mention that because it's related to thinking that passionateness was something everybody but me understood. I was initially thinking 'oh good.. a thread about the definition of passion.'

Offtopic Tom H? ah, 'Off the top of my head'.

edited 11th Sep '11 7:06:50 PM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

But if someone has no over riding passion or dream, would you feel pity for them or try to provoke them, to find out what they want?

And why do you think having somewhere to go would be helpful?

Provoke them? sure. I mean, as I said, P and G together are best. And provoking people is fun.

Having somewhere to go is useful because it provides you a 'compass' to counter the arbitrary, temporary fluctuations in your feelings that would otherwise lead you to do destructive or counterproductive things.

edited 11th Sep '11 7:23:31 PM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

I hate this tendency. I think the "passion" one irritates me more, as that's the one I keep running into when it comes to job-seeking advice.

This. Also, in a way, since people often think of the opposite when someone isn't something, they may pity them out of assuming that they are not as complete as they could be as people. /shrug

In reality, not having passions or dreams probably just means that you're not super-duper excited or interested in anything, not that you're a husk of a person.

I'd like to challenge this—what if the goals are unrealistic given the person's skills and social situation?

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

They're set up for a fall. But that's a different thing from the goals not being useful as a way to steady behaviour, and thereby conferring a strict advantage over a person lacking goals.

edited 12th Sep '11 7:20:21 AM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

^ I'm not sure I understand where you're getting the idea that a person without goals is likely to harm himself. Are you saying that you personally would be likely to harm yourself if you did not have goals? (I don't think you can generalize that to everyone in the world.)

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

I do think you can generalize that to everyone in the world. People are emotional creatures — the idea that they are significantly rational doesn't hold up to inspection. You don't have to be say, cutting, to be doing something counterproductive or self destructive — you could act in an antisocial way, eat lots of chocolate or drink lots of beer, smoke, avoid washing or exercise, take yourself way too seriously and worry obsessively about something.... that's just off the top of my head.

You need goals in order to attain an emotional attachment to something that will steer you AWAY from self-destructive behaviour.

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

Maybe we're defining "goals" differently. It sounds to me like you're saying that nirvana would lead to self-destruction. (Granted, it did for Kurt Cobain . . .)

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

I've never understood why "seriousness" has been changed to mean "joylessness" or "pomposity", taking the world seriously seems reasonably intelligent, if for no other reason than hopefully other people will do so as well.

And why do people need goals? And what would you guys consider to be good examples of them.

Oh that Pun Actually HURT. One of my lungs just collapsed!

Taking the world seriously is a great idea. Taking yourself seriously is a terrible idea.

I won't comment on nirvana*

— but none of us are perfect, we all have bad (ie. counterproductive or self destructive) habits, our feelings fluctuate, no matter how awesome the situation is. If we don't have a goal to follow, we'll follow our feelings (which means that basically, we just perform our habits or instincts). This is seen everywhere, including in supposedly super-controlled people.

edited 12th Sep '11 6:30:26 PM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

Would you say that "try to have fun, and try to keep yourself in a good enough condition to have fun" is a goal? It certainly seems like a better life than striving for decades to become successful.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Only the second part makes sense as a goal to me — 'try to have fun' is too ill-defined to be a genuinely meaningful goal IMO.

What do you mean by 'successful'?

Personally, most of my goals relate to what kind of person I intend to be (thoughtful, positive, affectionate and friendly, proactive). In my opinion externally based goals are problematic, because they feed that thirst (Tanha, to be precise), and lead a person to become lopsided.

I generally regard goals for your own behaviour and thinking, such as you have vaguely described, as strictly better than 'external' goals like earnings, position, or having (yeah, possessively is the right kind of subtext here :|) a romantic partner who is generally regarded as hot.

Edit: The linking mechanism hates accented characters ("Taṇhā"). fixed link.

edited 12th Sep '11 7:56:19 PM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

Is "earn enough money to retire" an acceptable goal to you, then? Most other goals seem to me like constraints, on top of the constraints I already have (and do my best to escape.) Plus, they create the false feeling that you have to do something you don't actually have to do.

edited 13th Sep '11 12:32:45 AM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Acceptable goals? All goals that are somewhat possible are acceptable, IMO — in the sense that they confer a steadying influence. Whether they are wise is a different question.

"Earn enough money to retire"? That seems sensible, since it's focused on the end (retiring) and not the means (merely having X amount of money or earning Y salary)

edited 13th Sep '11 12:58:59 AM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

So what would you say to people who don't HAVE a goal? I mean what would you argue there point "should" be?

I consider a "dream" to just be a long term ambition, myself.. Not having one simply means you are content where you are, or if you aren't, that you haven't decided on a goal to pursue yet and are in a kind of unsatisfied limbo.

I think everyone should have realistic and practical ambitions/dreams. I decided I wanted to get out of law enforcement and be a paramedic, so I registered in college to do so.. Easy as that. I'm pursuing a dream, a goal, whatever you want to call it.

You've either got ambition, or you're content where you are, it's hard for me to imagine having anything else.

edited 13th Sep '11 1:36:56 AM by Barkey

I could describe it if you like.

Your not content where you are, but you don't know where you want to go. A lack of skills or experience prevents you getting any "proper" job in the economy but you are reasonably comfortable and don't know what to shoot for.

You've got what you need, you just don't know what you WANT.

The way I always do it is I look at somewhere I want to be, and then think about if I can realistically progress towards it, and then go for it.

Try job searching around, find a job that you decide you want, and then find out what you would need to do to be qualified for it, and go from there.

I tend to reguard my dream (of getting into a political job) more of a plan and aim as oppose to a wish. I try to regulate my focus to ensure that via my passions that I study my way into the Civil Service.

I’m a lumberjack and I’m ok. I sleep all night and work all day.

The problem there Barkey is that you might not even have a job you want, and even then your description or desire for a job might just be "one that pays the bills and that I don't hate".

Or one that you "think I should be good at", the problem is that a lot of people don't have an overall goal. They would like to, but lack anything to really shoot for because they (quite literally) don't have any drive.

edited 13th Sep '11 3:03:45 AM by JosefBugman

I would say they need to (with the help of others)

1. do personal inventory, to figure out where they are at, and then

2. moral inventory, to figure out where they think they should be going AS A PERSON. Then

3. extrapolate from that sense of who their ideal self is, to find some concrete aspects of that which could be fulfilled but aren't currently; and set those as goals*

.

For example, I'm far less touchy-feely than I'm comfortable with; my ideal self is quite touchy-feely. So I have a goal of becoming touchy-feely enough that greeting people I know with hugs feels 100% natural all the time; the path to that being to touch whenever I see the opportunity, and even to make opportunities — it's another form of expression, like speaking and writing, it takes practice to get good at it.

Think in terms of a travelling metaphor: you can't travel from A to B if you don't know where A [where you are at now] is, nor if you don't know where B [your goal] is. Further, you must choose the path between A and B such that you don't get lost, or discouraged through the immediate next step of the path being too hard.

Passion partially suggests the position of A (And may predict your level of motivation to travel the path; this correlation seems unreliable though); Goal of course directly indicates B *

Also, IME doing step 2 above helps to find passion that you didn't realize you had, or that you had previously given up on fulfilling.

edited 13th Sep '11 3:38:40 AM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'