Masterpiece VS Favourite Work

I'd say a "Masterpiece" is "a work that is flawless" while a "Favourite Work" is "a work that is awesome".

There's stuff you like, and there's stuff you respect, that's why "what's your favourite work?" and "what's the best work you know?" yield different answers.

• If you asked me about my favourite Ghibli movie, I'd say "Princess Mononoke", but if you asked about the best I'd say Grave Of The Fireflies.
• If you asked me about Studio Bones, my favourite would be Soul Eater, but my favourite woud be Eureka Seven.
• If you asked me about Anime in general I'd say the best series ever is Ghost In The Shell Stand Alone Complex, but my own personal favourite is Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica.
• If you asked me about Rap, I'd say the best is Jay Z, AFAIK, but my favourite track is Eminem's "Without Me".
• If you asked me about movies, I'd say my favourite movie ever is The Matrix, but the movie I thought was the best ever would be Twelve Angry Men (if it doesn't count because it's a play, I'll say "Casablanca").

Now do you get where I'm going with this? If you allow me to move the goalposts a little, I'd say a masterpiece tries to be flawless and be the best it can on every front, a bit like The Mario, and everybody likes it at least a little, averting So Okay, It's Average, while "somebody's favourite work" has aspects it treats as Dump Stat, but breaks the scale on the stuff that specific somebody and his like-minded demographic like the most, a bit like a Glass Cannon: at worst, this goes into Refuge in Cool and Pandering to the Base.

It's the difference between Magnum Opus and Best. Work. Ever.

edited 10th Sep '11 1:27:01 PM by Erock

I use the term "masterpiece" for a work that has high ambitions and reaches them. Cave Story has moderately high ambitions, but reaches them almost perfectly, so I'd call it a masterpiece. Mass Effect 2 has absurdly high ambitions, and I consider it to fall short of them (for reasons that would take an entire essay to explain.) On the other hand, I had more fun playing Mass Effect 2 than I did playing Cave Story.

(To differ from Jesus Saves, I think a work can be a masterpiece even if it's a Cult Classic or produces strong negative reactions from some people.)

edited 10th Sep '11 3:45:47 PM by feotakahari

Well, your definition on the other hand seems certainly less likely to cause said demographically sectorial violent reactions...

I can see the OP's point, and I agree with it in general.

I do as well.

For example, the best anime series is probably either Cowboy Bebop or Git S:SAC, however my favorite is probably Angel Beats! (or possibly Steins;Gate, depending on how the last episode goes).

Actually, to spread it a bit further, it's possible to not enjoy something that you know is well done. For example, I don't really like stealth in games, so the Metal Gear Solid games never applied to me, however they are undoubtedly very well done. I also tend to not like Western RP Gs but again, they're probably more well done than the RP Gs that I do like.

For the record, would you say Evangelion and/or Gurren Lagann are masterpieces? I got a lot of flak in the anime section for saying they weren't...

I actually don't think Evangelion is a masterpiece. It's an important evolutionary work, to be sure, but the series has a lot of problems. I don't think it's aged particularly well, however I think the Rebuild sequels are awesome.

TTGL is probably my next favorite anime series. It does what it does VERY well, and I think it's even better than that. It's just that the other two series I mentioned as enjoying more hit me hard.

I would say that TTGL is closer to masterpiece status than Evangelion, to be sure. One thing about TTGL bugs me, the edits made to the scene at the beginning of the final episode. Annoys to me to hell, removing Nia's CMOA.

I think saying "a work that is flawless" is pretty meaningless, as perfection doesn't really exist.

But other than that nitpick, yes, a masterpiece and an enjoyable work are quite distinct (which is not to say that masterpieces aren't enjoyable).

edited 10th Sep '11 5:07:01 PM by INUH

Seeing as flaws with a work are entirely subjective, as is all quality about it, masterpiece is never a term I'd use. I would use a favorite work.

Yeah, that'd be old Nia's CMOA. Young nia's would be when she applied the brand-new vocabulary Kittan kindly taught her to her then-former-servant Adine. Or her entire speech there, really, especially the line "Just Following Orders? If my father told you to kill yourself, would you do it?". Or "I won't die!" as submachine-gun is pointed at her face, or "Simon is Simon, you can never become your brother!". Harsh, but true (not to mention common sense), and ultimately very healing. I'm not a fan of the series as a whole, because I think it pushes a Broken Aesop (in fact it breaks it so hard it becomes a Fantastic Aesop), it encourages obnoxious shouting, it near-deifies an idiot with insecurity issues who happened to be a good fighter with a way with words WAIT! PLEASE! I'M JOKING! I'M JUST JOKING, PEOPLE! THOSE POTHOLES ARE A JOKE! DON'T THROW LEECHEES AT ME!, and the extremely obnoxious and unnecessary fanservice for both sexes (get a shirt, young man! and is this a corset?!). Those are, mostly, IMHO, the things getting in the way of this series being a true Masterpiece. Given that they're kinda key to the whole concept and a big part of the reason why it's so damn fun, not-masterpiece status seems to be exactly what GL wants to be, and it has a lot of fun doing so.

But if I had to mention four good sources of philosophy and awesome which make it closer to a masterpiece I'd say Nia (if there's an Ubermensh in this story, it's her... her morality is very family-friendly, but it's also completely original and personal, in a way: she has a forrest-gump-ish knack for extremely à propos delivery of common sense), Old Rossiu (puts the happiness of the greatest number before his and that of his loved ones, has an exemplary sense of responsibility), Old Yoko (again, common sense), and Leeron (though in his case it's more of a matter of keeping impeccable style in all circumstances). Yeah, I'm a very Closer to Earth person, I like clear simple linear thinking and not people running around being tooclever or too stupid, and I especially hate it when a story reward them for being so.

I loved that Magnum Opus page, but it seriously lacks examples from languages other than English or Japanese... Especially since this is one of the few tropes that lends itself well to universal classical literature... I know, I know, if you think something lacks examples, edit them in yourself.

Hm. For Naruto the bits that could aim for masterpiece-of-shounen status would be the Chuunin Exams, it was pretty tight, emotional, character-development-heavy work.

For Cervantes, Don Quixote is actually ver flawed by modern standards, but do we give it a free pass on account of being the first modern novel ever?

A case might be made that "masterpiece" describes the work which the creator thinks is their best, whereas "favourite work" typically denotes the work which is most popular among their fans.

There'd be a lot of overlap, obviously.

For some reason, in music, they tend to be very different.

Eh, well, I do differentiate the stuff I like from the stuff I respect whenever they conflict. But to call them masterpieces is... well, for me the term has always been something for the creator to decide.

As for Eva and TTGL, while I don't care for Eva much, I can see why people like it.

I'd argue for TTGL, though. I mean, the things you've pointed out aren't really flaws, from my perspective at least. Fanservice is called fanservice for a reason (I'm not fond of it myself, but it's so prevalent I'm already meh towards it), "obnoxious" shouting is a given in a world of ham, and what exactly is the broken aesop here?

In the end though I'm not really one for arguing the "quality" of works when this "quality" is not the same as enjoyment. *shrug*

Twain's Observation on Originality might hold some of the keys to the problem.

Seperating between quality and entertainment value is a pretty basic thing. At least I'd like to think it is.

Calling a "masterpiece" a "flawless work" is still retarded though.

Thankyousir

What I find funny as hell is that I (someone who is neither religious nor atheist) told this to my dad (an atheist) and he said: "I think you're wrong." To me, so long as any masterpiece has been crafted/imagined/written/etc. by a human, it will, by default, contain flaws. Frankly, I'm happier if it is flawed because, as we all know, ''certain'' flawless things piss us off because their never-ending chain of excellence is unrealistic. So my dad's response honestly shocked me. But he also admitted that he was speaking as someone who admires art/music/etc., not someone who creates it (though he plays guitar).

Still, some interesting food for thought imo.

edited 13th Sep '11 11:47:28 AM by Ari1991