Needs description rewrite or a split: Development Hell

This one has had a rather significant problem for a while — the description refers to it as a Film-only trope, but it's become the catch-all for "Vaporware in areas other than software." We either need to make a third trope for the other things, or rewrite the description to not be so specific to film and nothing else. I've tried mentioning this in its Discussion page, but all I got was a comment saying it had already been fixed when it hadn't.

I can't see the difference between Development Hell and Vaporware - and the latter even has a couple of examples that have folders on the former.

Technically, at least as far as the rest of the world is concerned, they're totally different. Vaporware is stuff that's announced before it's ready, to get a jump on the competition. Development Hell is a project that can't get out the door, for whatever reason. Vaporware may end up being released on schedule; Development Hell means the schedule is shot to hell, assuming it even reached the scheduling stage.

edited 8th Sep '11 9:06:52 PM by Xtifr

Vaporware tends to be used more to mean Development Hell even outside the wiki, though, in part because the "technical" definition is so common. If I recall correctly, the Vaporware Awards tend(ed) to honor the likes of Duke Nukem Forever.

If there's a distinction, it's that "Vaporware" has an additional connotation of "overhype possibly even bordering on fraud." Like they keep insisting it's "coming soon" despite knowing damn well that it's not. Development Hell could just be something like, oh, the 4th Indiana Jones movie, which took forever to get started, but wasn't being constantly hyped during that period.

Agreed with suedenim, I think.

Vaporware is more about hype and empty promises and marketing, while Development Hell is "people involved really do want it to get made, it's just tied up in a ton of roadblocks".

The concepts frequently overlap because Development Hell is a very common cause of something becoming Vaporware, but something can be Vaporware without ever experiencing Development Hell, and, as suedenim pointed out, sometimes Development Hell can prevent something from even reaching the Vaporware stage.

edited 9th Sep '11 12:46:15 PM by Xtifr

Except that many of the instances of Vaporware don't get hyped that much. Duke Nukem Forever was an example - yes, they did promote it, but not nearly as much as one might assume (speaking as someone who wrote a retrospective when it hit its tenth year of development, it was such a tempting target - how could I not mock it repeatedly?).

Not only that, but video games are far from the only medium that get overhyped while development runs long. Personally, I think a merge is in order, with Vaporware being a redirect and Development Hell being the primary article.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. The fact that they can and frequently do overlap (as with Duke Nukem Forever) does not mean they're the same. The movie of Good Omens has been stuck in Development Hell for years, but has only reached the Vaporware stage recently (assuming you can apply the term to a movie, which I'm not convinced of). Contrariwise, Apple's 1994 announcement of System 7 (two years before its scheduled release) was Vaporware, but had no element of Development Hell.

edit: one of the things that makes Duke Nukem Forever so clearly a case of Vaporware is the fact that they were taking pre-orders for the game nearly a decade before it finally came out.

edited 9th Sep '11 2:27:29 PM by Xtifr

Seconding Development Hell as "not moving toward completion for whatever reason" and Vaporware as "not released on time despite being advertised as if it were coming soon".

I'd call Vaporware a subtrope of Development Hell. Development Hell is "anything that can't get released", while Vaporware is "something that can't get released despite having considerable marketing/hype behind it already".

DNF was actually on the verge of release - 3DRealms decided they'd swap the engine right quick, which kicked off its infamous stay in Development Hell.

Vaporware can be released on time. The important factor is a long time between announcement and release. This can be because of a late release, but it can also be because of an early announcement, as with the System 7 example. In fact, the Other Wiki identifies those as the two main flavors of Vaporware.

edited 9th Sep '11 5:45:51 PM by Xtifr

I have to dispute the validity of the pre-order argument, based simply on the fact that you can pre-order damn near anything from retailers that take pre-orders well in advance (in North America, this mostly just means Gamestop).

Right now, I could go put down five bucks on the Super Mario Bros. game coming out for the Wii U, and they'll accept it. Never mind the fact that Nintendo done nothing except mention that they're working on a Mario game for the system (no mention of concept, style, or release date at all). That's just how the brick-and-mortar stores are operating at this point.

Beyond that, though... I think we have a "respect your opinion, but I disagree" situation. Rather than repeat the same arguments repeatedly, I'll just wait for enough thoughts to come in, then propose a crowner in a few days.

The Other Wiki has articles on both: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_hell and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware, both of which I've been referring to throughout this discussion, and yes, DNF is mentioned in both articles.

This isn't my opinion vs. yours; this is pretty much all established use of either term anywhere vs. yours. But you can agree to disagree with the rest of the world if you want.

I made my opinion off the trope descriptions. They're in major need of cleanup, in that case.

Yeah, our coverage of things that aren't either tropes, works, or creators tends to be seriously spotty, random, and full of Did Not Do The Research wild guesses. Which is why I still haven't bothered to look at what our articles say. :)

Speaking of not being tropes, works or creators, don't both these articles belong in Useful Notes or Trivia?

Trivia, methinks.

It's been two months since this was active, are we going to take this anywhere?

Do we still need a crowner?

edited 11th Nov '11 7:53:31 PM by pokedude10

Seems like it's probably time to shelve this thread and move on.

Got the holler to lock. Would like to deal with one thing first.

</hat>

I'd go with Development Hell and Vaporware being different things as described above.

The OP mentions it's described as film-only but is currently used as a multi-genre term. Fixing that is easy — any objections to broadening the description?

Nah, I think there's general agreement on that point.

Ok. I'll fix up the text to make it more than film-only. Locking up for lack of consensus on the need to change the definition of Development Hell and/or Vaporware.