Is this really anime specific? Needs more subtropes.: Theme Naming

The supertrope initially claims to be specific to anime and manga, and goes on about the various implications of linguistic percularities of Japanese.

Then the last sentance says "This also applies in English-language media." Wait what? If this applies equally to English, why do we need the Japanese language leason? Also, can works writen in languages other than Japanese or English have theme naming? I would think so.

Note that none of the 18 subtropes mention Japanese, and they seem to have a healthy balance of names from various media types. Yet the examples still of the supertropes (and OMG is that a massive list) are dominated by anime examples. What's more, they not sorted by media type, which is a pain.

So this needs...

1. A rewrite to be less media and culture specific, or a rename and example purge if it really, absolutly must be about Japanese names.
2. The longer subcatogories not already given subtrope status can be either split off into subtropes or at least given an internal organization by media type.

That is rather weird. Hell, I know people in real life who used this for various things (naming their kids, their pets... I do this with my computers). I think we can do a rewrite to be less culturally specific.

Also,

Just what the heck is the difference between "All Over the Place" and "Others"?

Some of the examples on the suppertrope also already have an appropriate subtrope that they need to be moved into.

Yeah, this definitely isn't even close to being a Japanese-only trope. (Says the American with cats named Sunny, Snowy, and Rainy.)

edited 8th Sep '11 9:25:25 AM by Jeysie

No not anime specific, however its egregious in Japanese works and many of which are outright lost in translation, mean 5 different things or in 50 different languages.

edited 8th Sep '11 9:35:23 AM by Raso

That may be so, but it isn't a Japanese-only thing, and it doesn't need to be written as though it is, with a longer paragraph about how and why it's done in Japanese that the paragraph actually explaining the trope.

I rewrote the description. Take a look now. I haven't done anything with the examples, but this one needs someone who knows the work to figure out what the editor who added it was trying to say. I suspect English As a Second Language is to blame:

• The Sailor Animamates who are named Sailor (Metal) (Animal), their civilian names play off this. Iron mouse is Chūko Nezu with chū being the sound a mouse makes and Nezu short for nezumi, the for mose. Aluminum Seiren is Reiko Aya, which plays off the word if Mermaid. Lead Crow takes the name Akane Karasuma, which plays off the word for Red (pronounced the same as Lead) and Crow. Finally, Tin Nyanko, is Nyanko Suzu, which is plays off her name (Which plays off the word for Cat) and the word for Tin, or Bell (Which she has many of on her uniform.

edited 8th Sep '11 9:47:16 AM by Madrugada

I think a sentence or two about Alternate Character Reading, phonetic, Kanji and Hiragana give Theme naming a lot of leeway in Japanese works. Is needed somewhere or else people are going to start claiming Not An Example even though it is.

Also probably want to emphasize that it can be in any language Dragon Ball uses English, Negima uses Latin, Gundam Wing uses Spanish and German iirc. Sometimes these are only as a Genius Bonus or Foreign Language Bonus.

edited 8th Sep '11 10:17:11 AM by Raso

Can't you just explain in the example that in a given anime/manga's case, the theme name is in the secondary name/meaning instead of the primary name/meaning (or whatever the case actually is, I honestly didn't understand the explanation Maddie removed at all).

After all, I'm not sure how it's different from something like say, Red Vs Blue, where the Freelancers all have normal, varied civilian names, and it's their callsigns instead that are the Theme Naming. Primary name having the themes versus secondary name having it isn't really a factor, or Japanese-only either.

edited 8th Sep '11 10:17:41 AM by Jeysie

Those really sound like something that would be better explained in specific examples rather than the main paragraph. If we get rid of all the Japanese stuff, people will just assume that it can apply to any language.

That's the sort of thing that can go on the Analysis page for the trope. There you can explain the multiple names, multiple spelling systems, and all that. It's not vital to the trope itself to understand it.

edited 8th Sep '11 10:20:30 AM by Madrugada

Thanks for fixing it, Madrugada.

On a different note, why does the Headscratchers page seem to be talking about Meaningful Name instead?

edited 8th Sep '11 10:26:12 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

Most of what was removed can go I was just saying leave one sentence like "Due to Alternate Character Interpretation Theme Naming in Japanese Works is easier but sometimes more opaque than other languages"

long explanation

And a line saying "these can be in any language, sometimes are a Genius Bonus. "

edited 8th Sep '11 10:43:53 AM by Raso

Raso, sounds like much of what you're talking about belongs under Meaningful Name. There's a bunch of overlap in this (authors frequently use theme names to give meaning, after all), so it's not surprising to see several mix-ups in that regard.

Also, anyone who thinks that this trope is much easier in Japanese hasn't studied language enough - it's absurdly easy to pull off in any language, although it takes different forms in different languages.

The rewritten version looks good.

Oh, you can be completely opaque in Western works too especially if you're using puns, words from foreign languages, and odd variant spellings.

I do think a general line saying that sometimes the themes are a Genius Bonus wouldn't be out of place though. That's true in all languages.

edited 8th Sep '11 10:50:21 AM by shimaspawn

Meaningful Name and Theme Naming are closely related but not quite the same. Sometimes they might not be all that meaningful but they still carry a theme or a pun in them.

Hell sometimes the theme is the Meaningful Name or names, or the theme is different than said Meaningful Name

Alternate Character Interpretation needs to be on the page. (I would say the first line in the anime section at least but there isn't one.)

edited 8th Sep '11 11:06:30 AM by Raso

Alternate Character Interpretation is just an invitation for natter. It really shouldn't be anywhere that encourages people to use it in examples.

Agree that Genius Bonus naming is a fairly universal trait. Especially if we're talking Latin and Greek in English language stuff.

And... Raso, you keep bringing up Alternative Character Interpretation, but I'm not sure how that applies at all. ACI is about alternate interpretation of characters' personalities, not about alternate interpretation of "characters" in the sense of letters. What do personalities have to do with alternate ways to read words?

edited 8th Sep '11 11:07:05 AM by Jeysie

Fuck... Where is that alternate character (as in kanji character) trope then? I thought that was it.

FFS was it Alternate Character Reading?...

edited 8th Sep '11 11:12:16 AM by Raso

Ah, I see. Here you go, I found it: Alternate Character Reading

Still, that doesn't make Japanese very special compared to other languages, as many other languages also have puns, homophones, anagrams, and other letter-interpretive things that are possible.

You linked it earlier in the thread. Alternate Character Reading.

Alternate Character Reading happens in English too. Especially with homonym and heteronyms. It can be a huge thing in a lot of works.

Ok that's the page FFS sorry the other trope name is how I always called it in discussions.

yes and we should go into that too a tiny bit. However that page should be linked in the description because it's a major source of how theme naming works in japan and one western users (even anime fans) won't know and will be confused about.

That's really something for the analysis tab, not the main. That's where additional information that doesn't come up in most cases goes. Otherwise the descriptions get long and confusing for people just looking for the jist of the trope.

Except for a tab with just one pothole to another trope is really pretty useless, all the needed info is already on the other page.

edited 8th Sep '11 11:32:18 AM by Raso

If you think a given example will be confusing for a reader, then you should be explaining the necessary details in the example anyway.