Diva of Virtual Death
Basically, you have the currently non-existent Super Trope "Game That Can Be Made Unwinnable", of which there's three subtropes:
- The designers deliberately made it possible to render it unwinnable. - Unwinnable by Design
- The designers accidentally made it possible due to a bug or design error which could show up in normal gameplay. - Unwinnable by Mistake
- The designers accidentally made it possible due to a bug or design error but you'd have to almost be trying on purpose to stumble across it. - Unwinnable by Insanity
As for the sliding scale, seeing as how that's a scale that's already been established and created outside of the wiki for the very purpose of categorizing unwinnable situations, I fail to see how it doesn't fit the article.
edited 3rd Sep '11 9:17:47 AM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Most of the examples on the trope are correct uses. Examples where the game intentionally forces you to lose, either because you overlooked an important item early on in the game, or where the game dictates that you're suppose to lose as part of the story.
Hmm... Should we also make a trope like Unwinnable From The Beginning, though I'm still not sure how such games aren't also examples of this trope.
edited 3rd Sep '11 11:58:51 AM by Balmung
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
I think Jeysie nailed the definition, but the problem is that the title implies that the game is designed to be impossible in any circumstance, not the that the game is winnable, but can become unwinnable as a result of player action.
Reaction Image Repository
I think we can leave the full scale in, at least for now. This thread should be about picking a new name. If anything, just add a note to #1 that's it's an aversion and to #2 that's it's Shmuck Bait.
Just to get the ball rolling, I'll toss out "Unwinnable by Process", although we can probably do better.
World's Toughest Milkman
Is there misuse?
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
I see the Awesomeness.
Dragon Writer
^^ That is the $25,000 question, isn't it? I didn't have time to research it this morning.
As a video game puzzle, this is the trope if it's possible to save your gamestate while you're inside the trap, or if that toilet plunger you need to survive it lies prior to some other point-of-no-return. (Otherwise, you just make a mental note to take your Kleptomaniac Hero exploring the other areas first and return to the trap later when you have more items.)
Now while this may be in the name of logic and realism, it also violates the Rule of Fun by forcing you to repeatedly backtrack through your list of previous saves (or start the game over) until you locate whatever Chekhov's Gun you didn't know was important. So I don't see it as much as the designers wanted a game to become unwinnable if the player messes up, but that they took no steps to predict and prevent unwinnable situations from developing — they allow that burden to rest on the player. It probably also explains why Sierra adventures were so short if you knew what you needed to do....
That's what separates it from Unwinnable by Mistake, where the developers (generally) ensured that you will always have whatever skills/items you need to solve the puzzle at hand and proceed, because they will be immediately available to you and/or you are guaranteed to have them in your posession before reaching this point at all.
edited 3rd Sep '11 9:15:36 PM by Stratadrake
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Diva of Virtual Death
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
My definition isn't misleading at all. It's exactly the same as your definition but in fewer words.
Basically, in the design case, the designers deliberately left/made the game able to be rendered unwinnable, whether by intentionally adding in situations where it could happen or just due to not bothering to remove/redesign them. The end result is the same either way: Deliberate possibility of unwinnability.
This is in contrast to the mistake case, where they actually wanted the game to never be unwinnable but either ended up with a bug or didn't catch every possibility.
And in the insanity case, it could be either deliberate or a mistake, but either way it's a situation where you really have to be trying for it to happen.
IMHO I think you're trying too hard to make the tropes out to be way more complicated than they actually are.
edited 3rd Sep '11 9:52:06 PM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Dragon Writer
I just don't like the connotations of the word "deliberate" because that implies taking action. In other words, preventing unwinnable situations is the deliberate action while allowing them to develop is the default state.
But hey, that's just semantics. Let's move on.
Now for the misuse check — at 193 wikilinks, let's see...
The following sample is the complete A thru H range (plus a few stragglers).
More or less correct
- Sid Meiers Pirates
- Torins Passage (averted)
- ThatOneLevel.Adventure
- Alone In The Dark
- Androcles' Lion
- Game.Another World
- Bandit Mook
- Block Puzzle
- Cadaver
- Day Of The Tentacle (averted)
- Dracula Unleashed
- Elvira Games
- Escape From Horrorland (averted)
- Grannys Garden
- Gold Rush
- Head Over Heels
- Game.The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy
Possibility of misuse (debatable)
- Hugos House Of Horrors
- A Boy And His Blob
- Academagia
- Black Knight
- Carmen Sandiego
- Classic Video Game "Screw You"s
- Commander Keen
- Conquests Of Camelot
- Copy Protection
- Dark Corners Of The Earth
- Dark Savior
- Dead Man Walking
- Dead Rising
- Fake Difficulty (potholes)
- DemonicSpiders.Final Fantasy
- Gish
- Green Sky Trilogy
- Sorcery
- Zombie Fluxx
Mistaken for "literally unwinnable" / "no-win prospect"
- Abusive Parents
- Series.Balls Of Steel
- Choose Your Own Adventure
- Eighty Years War
- El Gran Juego De La Oca
- Endless Game
- Enthalpy
- Friend or Foe?
- Golden Snitch
- Grabbed By The Ghoulies
- Guitar Hero
- Halo Reach
- Hexen
- High Octane Nightmare Fuel.Homestuck
Other misuse
- Action 52: ...in some games you can't even [[UnwinnableByDesign reach]] the ending...
- Breaking the Fourth Wall (Sinkhole)
- Bubble Bobble: "because you die too frequently"
- Challenge Gamer (list of Self Imposed Challenges)
- Family Project (is Bad Ending)
- Game-Breaking Bug (is Unwinnable by Mistake)
- Golden Ending (discussing Multiple Endings)
- Holding Back the Phlebotinum (Natter)
- Hopeless Boss Fight (Game-Breaking Bug? No Fair Cheating?)
No context given
- Conquests Of The Longbow
- Eye Of The Beholder (no context given)
If I'm classifying these correctly, this is a minimum* 28 out of 61 links misusing the trope — about 45%.
edited 4th Sep '11 10:15:00 AM by Stratadrake
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
'M not Crazy, just Raven
^ The Family Project one might actually be correct: reading that example with a familiarity of Visual Novels gives the impression that the editor was referring to an early-game choice which determines whether or not the player is eligible for the good ending, but the player isn't given any indication that they'll be getting the bad end until they reach the end of the game. I'm not familiar with this particular example, though.
The Myst example in Golden Ending seems to be something along a similar line.
Now Bloggier than ever before!
Diva of Virtual Death
Skimming over the stuff I know offhand, the two Conquest examples are correct, A Boy and His Blob is correct, the Carmen Sandiego example is correct, the Dead Man Walking one might be better linked to a general Unwinnable supertrope but isn't incorrect, at least, the Breaking The Fourth Wall example is correct and not a sinkhole, the Fake Difficulty one is outright stated in the "Punishing decisions made long before one could reasonably understand the ramifications" list and not a pothole, and Classic Video Game Screw Yous is the same thing as Dead Man Walking.
edited 4th Sep '11 4:52:54 AM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
As far as I can tell, there are three main metrics by which titles are typically judged. Misuse, Health and Nitpickiness. As far as I can see, this trope is typically not being misused (with the main exception being the image), and it is fairly healthy.
So, basically, do we think that the title is fundamentally misleading despite the lack of misuse? Should it be changed for generic clarity purposes?
Considering that several image picking threads didn't notice the error, I'm going to lean in favor of saying "yes, a more meaningful name is in order, here."
edited 4th Sep '11 5:15:17 AM by LordGriffin
Also, I think we can all admit that this Repair page only exists as in extension of the Image Pickin' thread. So really, the issue has less to do with whether the name is good or bad, but what the exact definition actually IS.
To whit: Does this trope (or should it) allow for games that were never winnable to begin with? If so, expect to see every Atari game (except Pitfall II) listed! Also ... regular Tetris, which would end up making the picture pointless anyway!
edited 4th Sep '11 5:22:00 AM by LordGriffin
Diva of Virtual Death
I feel like we probably should go ahead and make that non-existent Unwinnable supertrope.
Other than that, I admit I'm not sure how to rename the existing three subtropes in a way that makes it clear they're closely related.
It's kind of a situation where on its own Unwinnable By Design might be misleading, but IMHO it's quite clear when contrasted with By Mistake and By Insanity as its sister tropes.
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Dragon Writer
^ The Super-Trope already exists ... at Unwinnable.
@Griffin: I wonder by what standard do you consider 45% percent misuse to be "typically used correctly".... because if I've classified my findings correctly* , that's precisely the figure I've arrived at.
Ten percent misuse is normal. Anything over 20% is a problem, and if you're over 40% then it calls for immediate attention.
I do confess my initial motive for posting this was partly "I think this was a bad title to begin with"... I seem to recall a previous cleanup effort for Unwinnable in general, with editors replacing "Unwinnable" links with Unwinnable by Design. Can I play the Nice Job Breaking It, TRS card?
edited 4th Sep '11 10:26:34 AM by Stratadrake
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Dragon Writer
Allow me to continue my wikilink scan, same classifications.
This is the complete I thru O range:
Indexes
More or less correct
- Indiana Jones And The Fate Of Atlantis (averted)
- Infocom (recurring trope)
- Inventory Management Puzzle (Infocom example)
- VideoGame.Jet Set Willy 2
- Kings Quest I
- Kings Quest II
- Maniac Mansion
- Mouse Hunt (averted)
- Nethack
- Okami (averted)
Debatable
- John Madden Football: "In Ultimate Team mode, if you play exceptionally poorly or quit a lot of games you can run out of players (who are limited to a certain # of games) and be unable to replace them with fresh ones...."
- Last Stand (see Nonstandard Game Over, below)
- Nitemare 3 D: "...in a select few situations you'll need to coax enemies into blocking off certain passageways. Killing those enemies too soon makes the level unwinnable."
- Nonstandard Game Over (Wing Commander 3)
Mistaken for "literally unwinnable"
- Iji (Word of God confirms that on the highest difficulty, the first level is literally unwinnable)
- Implacable Man (Game-Breaker?) "Abaddon the Despoiler ramped this up into Unwinnable by Design territory by the fact that he saved on a 2 on 2d6....
- Level Editor: "...there are chances you can cause a stage to be Unwinnable by Mistake unless you did that on purpose."
- Love Plus (is Copy Protection)
- Headscratchers.Mega Man (Natter)
- Mini-Game Credits: "...a surreal, psychological horror flash game allows you to play a creepily pointless game while it loads."
- Minute To Win It: "if you make it to Level 10 then Supercoin is nigh Unwinnable by Design."
- Negated Moment of Awesome: "Captain Unohana Retsu holds her own briefly using some high level kidos without incantation and then promptly leaves presumably because the battle was unwinnable depriving fans of the chance to see some of her fighting badassery]]."
- Obvious Beta: "Before any World Of Warcraft expansions came out, most final raid bosses were rendered unkillable or unreachable by Game Breaking Bugs (sometimes on purpose...."
- Should be Dummied Out.
- UnwinnableByMistake.Other Video Games: "Even though a template game (in which the player chooses which levels they want to play) is Unwinnable by Design, the game tries to make sure that the normal game is winnable...."
Other misuse
- I Of The Dragon: "...The mission is essentially impossible to finish
in the highest difficulty setting."
- Headscratchers.Jump Start Adventures3rd Grade Mystery Mountain (Natter)
- Meaningless Lives: "A lot of Mega Man games ... love to have obstacles in the final sequence that require or are made much easier with specific weapons, so if you're out of that weapon..."
- Ruling as misuse because you usually have access to randomly-dropped weapon refills, and weapons are refilled automatically when continuing from a Game Over (and you have infinite continues).
- Mortal Kombat Deception: "Several of Konquest mode's questlines have no ending...."
- Ruling as misuse because these appear to affect optional sidequests only. Not An Example.
- Not That Kind of Doctor: "During the suicide mission, Mordin is a candidate for the Tech Specialist position, but if you try to use him in that regard, he's guaranteed to die."
...whatever
- Made Of Win Archive Late 2010 (Natter)
Results of this scan are a minimum 15 misuse from 33 wikilinks, which is (also) approximately 45%.
edited 4th Sep '11 10:43:47 AM by Stratadrake
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Gentleman Troper!
Wow, that's quite a lot of misuse. I'm not surprised, though, because I saw two different Image Pickin' threads on Unwinnable by Design, in which most participants mistook it for "a game that is unwinnable".
I think there's four tropes here.
- Endless Game. For example, space invaders: a game that intentionally and clearly doesn't have an end.
- Unwinnable Joke Game. Needs a better name than that, but games that have a clear goal (e.g. clearing the lines in XKCD Hell Tetris) but a goal that is clearly and intentionally impossible. As near as I can tell, these are always joke games. Super Kingio Bros is another example.
- Walking Dead Situation. At least, that's what it's called in adventure gaming: the game isn't unwinnable from the start, but can become unwinnable as a result of the player's actions, where this is the intent of the game designer. It's called walking dead because the player character is "dead" in that he cannot reach the ending, and "walking" since he doesn't know it yet.
- And Unwinnable by Mistake (and Unwinnable by Insanity, which is really The Same But More), a game that can become unwinnable as a result of the player's actions, where this is a bug or glitch in the game.
edited 4th Sep '11 10:46:23 AM by Spark9
Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Diva of Virtual Death
Maybe we should just move incorrect Endless Game examples to that trope (and then make it better connected to the various unwinnable tropes' descriptions), create that "deliberately made to be impossible to win at all" trope and move those examples to that, and keep this title as meaning "Walking Dead Situation".
Or, if we rename By Design, actually rename all three Unwinnable tropes to match each other. This is one case where I think snowclones are useful/needed because they're really three parts of the same trope. (Or possibly four parts of the same trope, if we add in "unwinnable at all, no matter what".)
edited 4th Sep '11 11:55:51 AM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
With the Mistake/Insanity split, the issue was that there was uncertainty whether forcing the game to be impossible to win actually counted, if there's no real way it could come up in casual play. If it does count, at what level does glitching the game to be playable but impossible to win stop counting, because at that point you're just playing with code? ("If you hex edit Links Awakening to remove all your items, the game becomes unwinnable!")
Then there's the problem of "how much more can you play" in the unwinnable state, as some misuse problems are akin to "if you lose all your lives in Super Mario Bros, the game becomes unwinnable!!" (Or worse, "If you get to the final Bowser as small mario, the game becomes literally unwinnable!") With adventure games, at least you had the litmus test of whether you were able to save after the point of no return.
edited 4th Sep '11 12:22:06 PM by RickGriffin
Gentleman Troper!
The problem with the mistake/insanity split is that there is no objective way of distinguishing the two.
Mighty pirate!
Mistake: A valid or innocuous decision by the player produces unexpected consequences, possibly glitchy ones, resulting in an unwinnable situation.
Insanity: There's no glitch or unintended consequence involved - the player must deliberately choose to make the game unwinnable.
edited 4th Sep '11 1:26:18 PM by Shale
Gentleman Troper!
That doesn't work. You can't objectively define which player decisions are "innocuous" and which are "deliberate". Many games reward out of the box thinking and weird solutions to problems, so players can and will try any number of weird things for "innocuous" reasons.
Mighty pirate!
Yes, but anybody who tries something that will, if it works as advertised, make the game unwinnable has nobody but themselves to blame if it does in fact make the game unwinnable.
If what the player did should not have made the game unwinnable given the information available to them, then it's By Mistake or By Design.
Crown Description:
Contrary to what the name sounds like, this isn't about games that are literally impossible/unwinnable from the start (e.g. the Kobayashi Mario, or the xkcd Tetris strip chosen in IP). It's the type of game design that originates in classic Adventure games where, for example, failing to acquire that Chekhov's Gun can leave your game in an Unwinnable state when you need it later.
The attempt at listing a sliding scale doesn't really benefit the article much either, because the first two items on the list aren't even examples of the trope: "Polite" is the aversion of the trope while "Merciful" falls under Shmuck Bait.
[EDIT]: There's also a lot of misuse in wikilinks for situations that are literally unwinnable.
edited 4th Sep '11 10:28:33 AM by Stratadrake
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.