Sue or not? I want to put an end to this.

I know everyone is tired of Mary Sue threads, so if you don't want to bother reading this, well... Don't bother reading this. Seriously.

If you do read and want to comment, please be considerate. I am open for criticism, but this is no random fanfic, so please try not to judge it too much without reading it.

I am writing a Science Fiction trilogy. This is actually very important to me, as I've putting a great deal of effort into these books for the past 3 years (and they are far from complete).

Naturally, I don't want people to hate my work because of a particular character, but I've had this intense, perhaps slightly irrational fear for a long time.

Okay, here's one of the main bases of the story (the stakes might seem ridiculous for some):

There are several truths in existence which significantly change the way a person perceives the world, and four of these "ultimate truths" (not revealing the actual names) are supposed to be discovered in a specific order (some truths have other truths as requirements). Once the fourth ultimate truth is discovered, a person will reach its maximum possible spiritual level and will pretty much become, well, God (or a part of God).

In universe, it is explained that every spirit will discover these truths at some point in their existence.

Oh, and it's not possible to tell these truths to another person. They cannot be expressed in words. Only the overall concept can be explained.

Now, here we go:

The beginning of the first book happens in a futuristic setting. 31 years from now, actually. One of the major characters (but not the protagonist) is called Mark.

Mark knows two of the four ultimate truths. He wasn't born knowing these truths. In fact, he had a theory about them several years before and eventually became obsessed with discovering them. His obsession was so great that he eventually succeeded in discovering the first, and then described it as the most difficult thing he had achieved in his entire life. One year later, he discovered the second one.

The facts:

• In the beginning of the story, the main character, a naturally envious person, despises him for thinking he is a show off and unacceptably perfect. He doesn't know him personally yet, but Mark is pretty famous by now (people don't know about the truths yet, though, just about some of his deeds).

• His best friend, a girl, actually admires Mark in the beginning.

• Later on, Mark and the main character meet, stuff happens and the protagonist learns about the ultimate truths. He starts to like Mark and even develop a certain obsession.

• His female friend, though, starts to hate Mark for several reasons, including the protagonist's obsession with him.

• The second ultimate truth grants Mark the power of matter and energy manipulation, which means he can do... Many... Things (since this is the second out of four truths to becoming God, something like that is expected, I presume). He cannot time-travel, create interdimensional portals and change the laws of physics, though (that requires the third truth, except for time travelling to the past, which is impossible).

• He is, at first, the most powerful character. In the second book, though, more powerful characters appear and he even loses in a Curb-Stomp Battle at a certain point (strangely, though, I don't feel like the character who defeated him is sue-ish at all, for some reason).

• He could easily solve the conflict of the first book by himself, but doesn't, for several reasons.

Flaws:

• He is manipulative and arrogant, sometimes even risking the lives of his own friends due to his self-confidence. He is not very aware of it, though.

• He suffers a serious crisis in the second book at some point, even temporarily losing his abilities.

• His plans often don't work exactly as planned.

Egregious Sue traits:

As a matter of fact, he was based on a blatant God-Mode Sue I imagined myself as when I was a child, and this was very obvious in the first version of the first book, when I sucked as a writer. It's better now.

• He is extremely intelligent.

• He is very attractive.

• He has silvery gray eyes (originally black, but changed as he became more powerful)

• He uses a katana (manipulated to be sharper and more resistent than normal)

• He discovered the first mystery when he was 23 (not the youngest, actually. The protagonist did it at 16 and the youngest managed it at 7. The explanation given in-universe is related to reincarnation)

Overall

He used to be my favorite character when I started writing, but several characters share that position now.

He tends to fail miserably at Mary Sue Litmus Tests (I think there was exactly one test where he wasn't labeled as a sue). I've considered erasing him from the story several times, but he is too necessary for many reasons (including telling the protagonist about the truths).

And the weirdest part is: every reader likes him. I don't know why, really. They either don't care about him very much or like him. One reader even had him as his favorite character. That's considering I sent my book not only to close friends, but to experts who read hundreds of books and even other writers with published works.

Nobody complained about him, somehow.

And that's why I'm so divided, actually. My (current) readers like him and so do I, but the tests don't. Im not really sure if I should do anything else about him, but he is the cause my biggest fear in publishing my books.

Edit: wow, I practically wrote an article.

edited 25th Aug '11 6:41:51 PM by Teraus

Remember, the Sue scare is sort of exaggerated. Your character is on a similar level than Artemis Fowl, Maximus Ride, other "Canon Sue" characters...in short, okay. He seems like an escapist character of sorts.

If his characterization is strong enough, it can drown out the Sueish traits.

edited 25th Aug '11 4:10:02 PM by chihuahua0

A Sue is a character that warps a story that is not intended to be about them into being about them. It is not a character who has silver eyes, or lavender hair, or uses a katana, or has a strangely attractive scar or is a reality warper.

Mary Sue Litmus tests count traits (does he have silver eyes? Does he have lavender hair? and so on...). They do not and cannot measure whether the character warps the story.

If your readers don't find him sue-ish, then screw what the tests say.

edited 25th Aug '11 4:24:51 PM by Madrugada

Hmm... Well, that makes me more confident.

This. Egregious "specialness" is a symptom, not the disease.

Now, the traits would only be Sue-ish, if they're there for the sake of making the character cooler. If you have justification, and your character doesn't Curb-stomp every single enemy,you should be fine.

It seems like you have internal conflict in store for him. That is good. True Sues are usually one-layered and flat.

edited 25th Aug '11 4:38:59 PM by chihuahua0

Translation: If your Sue is either emotionally flawed (in a way that is not endearing, or at least not very) or can/will have his/her ass kicked, they're not really a Sue. They can be Sue-like, but not a true blue Sue.

He gets curb-stomped twice in the series. He even gets killed near the end of the third book.

I think the only unjustified traits are the ones related to his looks, but he has enough power to look like whatever he wants to look like, so choosing to look plain or ugly would be a bit weird for him, I suppose.

I really need to finish my first book and translate it to English. I would love to have a foreign review.

edited 25th Aug '11 4:44:30 PM by Teraus

The key point of Mary Sue is the world revolves around them. Escapist designs like the guy who is really intelligent, kicks the shit out of 25 guys in a street brawl and found the Anti-Life Equation answer to Life, The Universe and Everything are not Sues if the world doesn't revolve around them. They are simply escapist versions of The Ace.

@Madruagada I agree those tests are silly. If your character is enjoyable who caresif they are sues or not.

I'm not sure I totally understand your concept, but it does sound interesting.

Well, I didn't explain the whole concept about the Mysteries, but I'm glad you liked it. There's some real life philosophy behind it.

The main key, to me, is to make characters struggle for what they achieve. Never just give them an easy go of it— they should have to work for what they have and work after they get it. Mark might have God powers, but if he's arrogant like you say, those powers may lead to problems. Give him problems and have people call him on his flaws, and you probably won't have a Mary Sue.

As for Mary Sue traits... you shouldn't follow what the tests say religiously, but there is a grain of truth to them. They work best to make you question and defend your decisions on why you made your character that way. If you can defend your position and the defense is reasonable, keep the trait. For example, suppose you've got a superheroine who's also a princess. If her being a princess conflicts with her superheroing and adds drama and conflict, that's reasonable. If it's never mentioned outside the initial mention, why include it?

In that light, I ask you to reconsider giving Mark a katana. That was the one big WTF for me while reading your post. If he's got God powers, why does he need a sword? And why a Japanese sword? Katanas, like Badass Longcoats and sunglasses, are one of those things people add to make characters look cool, but unless there's a very good reason for it (or it look exceptionally cool, or both), it's just silly.

edited 25th Aug '11 6:45:25 PM by Ronka87

He uses it mostly for practical reasons, though, yeah, I did think a katana would be cool when I included it. During the events of the first book, there is a force opposing Mark's that draws on large quantities of energy and converts this energy into portals to another dimension (an important part in the plot of the first book). Monsters come out of these portals, and a certain human revolutionary learned to manipulate them to some extent. This is one of the reasons why Mark avoids using his powers too much in the first book, and chooses simpler fighting methods.

In the second book, he gives his katana to the main character, Adam, and fights with his full power.

Oh, the Katana thing could be explained away. Maybe he channels his power through it, or carries it around as a reminder of the kind of power he weilds. I read somewhere that in the old days, they rated swords by how many bodies they could slice through in one go. An average Katana had a rating of 7; it is not a weapon to be trifled with, and a danger in the right-or wrong- hands.

edited 25th Aug '11 7:01:21 PM by SalFishFin

Had a massive post ready to go, but I got ninja'd by people who said pretty much the same thing with fewer words.

That being said: You don't happen to be a fan of Neoplatonism and / or Gnosticism, do you?

After a quick research on Neoplatonism, I discovered that I do agree with several aspects of it, including the optimistic view on existence. About Gnosticism, though, I'm not so sure. I guess I'll explain the Mysteries tomorrow, but I need to make a college work right now.

These are the names, though, in order of discovery (while I'm at it. I'm becoming gradually less afraid of revealing details of my story with each post):

Mystery of Time and Space (yes, based on that game)

Mystery of Matter and Energy

Mystery of the Observer

Mystery of Satisfaction

I'll explain later.

edited 25th Aug '11 7:15:52 PM by Teraus

He uses his katana to fight monsters? That doesn't sound much better. Why can't he fight monsters with a Glock, or a submachine gun, or a rocket launcher— they're more practical. (Well, maybe not the rocket launcher.) Is there some rule that says monsters have to be killed with swords?

And why does a guy called Mark have a Japanese sword, anyway? Does he live in Japan? Does he have a deep emotional connection to Japan? Or did he just buy one off ebay 'cause he thinks katanas look cool?

I'm not dissing katanas, but it really did knock me out of the whole "sci-fi, A God Am I, solving the mysteries of the universe" set-up you have when I saw a guy with a katana. It's just incongruous.

edited 25th Aug '11 7:17:59 PM by Ronka87

He tends to prefer melee weapons. They are pretty effective when you consider his speed and accuracy, and don't damage the environment as much as a rocket launcher or other fire weapons. Of course, he only uses them when he doesn't want to waste an unnecessary quantity of energy by just disintegrating the monsters (which is pretty much the issue with the portals). I'll see what I can do about it, though.

edited 25th Aug '11 7:30:26 PM by Teraus

I now I feel kinda bad. It's your story, you should of course do what you want with it. But thanks for taking my thoughts into consideration.

By the way: he doesn't need to buy a katana, he can just materialize it.

edited 25th Aug '11 7:32:25 PM by Teraus

Give him a reason to have the katana. That's all you need.

If he discovered the first mystery at 17, he was young and probably at least somewhat susceptible to the teenage idea of Cool. The first weapon he materialized was a katana, because he was 17 and thought it was cool. But he learned how to use it and now he uses it because it's the blade and style he knows best and is most effective with.

There. A legitimate reason for him to have a katana. If he indicates that he knows it's cliche, ("Yeah, a katana. I was seventeen, for pete's sake. I thought it would be cool.") all the better.

He discovered it at 23. Would that still work or is it too boyish?

edited 25th Aug '11 8:05:04 PM by Teraus

23 is still young enough to fall for "cool".

Or come up with some other reason. The problematic thing about Katanas Are Just Better is that it's gratuitous katanas. Give him some reason that makes sense as a reason in the story, for him to have chosen a katana. Katanas are a possible symptom of Sueishness. They aren't proof or it and a katana isn't necessarily bad just because it's a katana.

He was a fan of Kurosawa movies.

There was an old guy in the park that he used to watch doing kata with a bokken, and he got to talking with him and learned about the style.

Whatever.

As long as you have a reason that made sense to him at the time, you're good.

edited 25th Aug '11 8:13:22 PM by Madrugada

Fair enough. I was 17 when I started writing it, so that kind of explains that, maybe.

I'll think of something decent.

edited 25th Aug '11 8:19:24 PM by Teraus