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Convert to Index?: Standard Status Effects get usage counts

 1 muninn, Sun, 21st Aug '11 12:24:21 PM from Somewhere, out there...
'M not Crazy, just Raven
The page is already soft-split into sub-tropes. Would people be in favor of hard-splitting Standard Status Effects into their own pages, and converting the page that they're currently described on into an index of the tropes that were split off?

This will also save us the trouble of doing it when the page hits the auto-lock threshold, although it's only halfway there right now.
 2 Louie W, Sun, 21st Aug '11 1:04:01 PM from Babycowland
Loser
I support a switch to a Standard Status Effects index with subtropes both because the current page is rather long and because I feel like the status effects are different enough to have their own pages. I think another advantage of converting the page into an index would be that examples can be more specific on trope and works pages. For example, one can talk about burning status effects and mention the specific name of that status effect rather than having to use Standard Status Effects with a pothole.

If we do go ahead with a index shift, I think that it would still be a good idea to write about a sentence for each status effect as it is linked for clarity's sake.

edited 21st Aug '11 1:05:53 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
 3 muninn, Sun, 21st Aug '11 1:14:03 PM from Somewhere, out there...
'M not Crazy, just Raven
^ Yeah, most of the other videogame indexes have one-sentence descriptors beside each entry on the list. I'd imagine that the same format would be carried over to the new page, for consistency's sake.

What about names? Video Game Poison? Poison Effect? Something more descriptive of each effect, rather than what the common name for it is (ie. Damage Over Time Effect for poison * )
I'd support splitting into subtropes, as long as the subtropes are about a given mechanical representation of the condition rather than the condition itself. So, the trope is not Poison, it's Poison That Drains Your HP A Little Each Turn.

edited 21st Aug '11 3:21:01 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 5 USAF713, Sun, 21st Aug '11 3:22:19 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
[up] Chisel Poison?

Anyhow, yeah, I support the idea of subtropes + index...
I am now known as Flyboy.
 6 shimaspawn, Sun, 21st Aug '11 3:30:22 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
I like the idea of subtropes + index. It is getting long. Though, the other folder can probably stay on the main. That's more for collecting proto-tropes. If something gets enough examples there we can turn it into a real trope.

edited 21st Aug '11 3:31:38 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
This might be slightly off-topic, but I'm just wondering: if Standard Status Effects becomes an index, would that entail doing the same thing with Status Buff (which is structured differently for some reason)?

And in both cases, could I still list SSE and SB in lists of tropes on work pages, or would that be considered gauche? (In other words, would I now have to list every separate status effect and buff that appears in the game?)
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And even if it is broke, just ignore it and maybe it'll be sort of OK — like the environment."
 8 muninn, Sun, 21st Aug '11 8:40:57 PM from Somewhere, out there...
'M not Crazy, just Raven
The Status Buff page could probably use a Trope Transplant: Right now it seems to be about characters who use status buffs, rather than the effects themselves.

I'd say split the current content of Status Buff to some other name that makes it clear that it's about the character, and re-appropriate the page to be about the Standard Status Effect of raising or lowering existing stats, which would then be indexed on Standard Status Effects.

Regarding the formatting, I could see it being formatted like more of a list-type thing. Something along the lines of:

or possibly like:

@Troaccid: yes, it would be about the mechanics. For example, Dungeons & Dragons would not really be listed on the Chisel Poison * page, because DnD poison doesn't deplete damage over time.
 9 Deboss, Sun, 21st Aug '11 9:22:38 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I like it, simply because I dislike huge pages like this, period.
What about names? Video Game Poison? Poison Effect?

Alternatively, we could take the names of the folders and add "status" to each one for unity: Poison Status, Burn Status, Paralyzed Status, etc. Boring, but easy to remember.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And even if it is broke, just ignore it and maybe it'll be sort of OK — like the environment."
 11 Dragon Quest Z, Sat, 27th Aug '11 10:19:14 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
But those are for works, while tropes are meant to be Main/.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 12 Clarste, Sat, 27th Aug '11 11:35:59 AM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
Universal Poison already covers a lot of video game poison tropes. We may have to split that or something.

[up][up] Sorry, I'm not sure I follow...?

(Just to clarify, I meant "Maybe the subtrope names could be quickly-and-dirtily named Poison Status, Berserk Status, etc. instead of more creative names.")
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And even if it is broke, just ignore it and maybe it'll be sort of OK — like the environment."
 14 Dragon Quest Z, Sat, 27th Aug '11 12:40:55 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
I thought you meant put them in the VideoGame/ namespace. You didn't mean that, so never mind.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
 15 muninn, Sat, 27th Aug '11 12:58:13 PM from Somewhere, out there...
'M not Crazy, just Raven
Let's take these a few at a time:

  • Poison/ Plague/ Bleeding: I'd still be in favor of Chisel Poison as the name, since that would help cement the fact that the article is only supposed to be about the kind of effect that gradually deals damage, rather than anything with "Poison" in the name
    • Universal Poison should be retooled to mean "Only one type of antidote exists, and cures all poisons". Since this trope is so common in videogames, it should probably be restricted to exceptions only.
  • Burn doesn't seem to have a specific effect, so it won't get its own subpage.
  • Silence can probably be tooled into a non-videogame-specific page, since there's nothing inherently specific to videogames about a mage being made unable to cast spells. The page will still be listed on Standard Status Effects
  • Paralysis/ Sleep/ Frozen/ Petrified/ Stop/ Fear: may or may not be able to be merged together, or split into more parts. Here are possible divisions (which may need to be lumped back together as necessary)
    • Indefinite-length effects that totally prevent action by the affected party
    • As above, but wears off on its own eventually
    • Indefinite-length effects that may prevent action, but not necessarily
    • As above, but wears off on its own eventually (I would suggest moving these two together)
    • Effects that can be interrupted by basic actions (ie. Sleep or Confused status that can be "remedied" by damaging that party member). Probably should go in its own article as a meta-property of status effects, but not being inherent to any particular effect
Universal Poison should be retooled to mean "Only one type of antidote exists, and cures all poisons".

I'm guessing this would involve a rename to Universal Antidote?

I like the idea of making Silence non-videogame-specific. It would also have to be one of the possibilities you list in your fourth point, right?
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And even if it is broke, just ignore it and maybe it'll be sort of OK — like the environment."
  • Paralysis/ Sleep/ Frozen/ Petrified/ Stop/ Fear: may or may not be able to be merged together, or split into more parts. Here are possible divisions (which may need to be lumped back together as necessary)

The fact that you have to say it this way is a sign that we may still need the page.

 18 Native Jovian, Sun, 28th Aug '11 4:42:36 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
If we're going to split these into their own tropes, we should probably group them by effect rather than by what they're called. For example, poison is usually "minor damage over time" but burn doesn't seem to have a standard effect; both paralyze, sleep, and frozen are "character can't act"; etc. I'd suggest making a page for "minor damage over time" (with a note that it's usually called poison but it sometimes called burn, etc), another for "character can't act", etc.

Since the tropes are about video game mechanics, the pages should focus on the mechanics rather than the flavor.

edited 28th Aug '11 4:43:01 PM by NativeJovian

 19 Clarste, Sun, 28th Aug '11 4:52:45 PM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
If they don't consistently have the same effect, then they're not standard.

Clarste; you confuse standard effect with standard nomenclature. These effects are common, and show up in numerous games, primarily computer/console, but also in a few board or tabletop games.

The point was made, above your post, that since these are mechanic tropes, not storytelling tropes, they should be grouped by effect, not name.
Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
 21 32 Footsteps, Tue, 30th Aug '11 9:21:35 AM from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Hmm... if you want to get down to pure mechanics, there are three types of general ailments, which are subdivided into multiple types. How the multiple types are handled is another question.

One thing to note is that each game's names for abilities do not necessarily match others, even in the same series. Paralysis means much different things in Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy Tactics.

Encroaching Death

These are the ailments that cause a character to come closer to death as time goes on, even if the enemy does no further attacks to said character.
  • Persistent Poison: By far the most well-known one, where damage slowly accrues and the effect remains until cured. This one frequently has many forms (viruses, poisons, curses), but they're all essentially the same thing, just with different rates of damage accumulation. Good old poison effects in the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series are prime examples.
  • Limited Poison: Same as above, but the effect goes away on its own after a certain point. Also has different forms, and can usually be cured ahead of time by items or abilities as well. Fire in Sword of Mana (which will go out after a set period) is a good example (also an example of full action lockdown, as mentioned below).
  • Doom Countdown: This one doesn't affect hit points; however, it notes that the character will instead essentially be hit by a One-Hit KO attack if not somehow circumvented. This could be by ending the battle, defeating the specific enemy placing said countdown, or merely by moving the would-be victim out of range. This is always a non-persistent effect. Doom in Final Fantasy games is a good example.

Action prevention

This is a broad class of ailments that prevent a character from doing their full range of actions. Several of these have subtypes.
  • Full body lockdown: The unit in question is not able to take any action; they however do not count as dead for purposes of other actions that may be undertaken against them. This effect usually wears off at the end of battle or after a limited time. This also includes movement. Stop in all the Final Fantasy games falls under this, as does Stone in the Final Fantasy Tactics games (other games, however, it qualifies as an One-Hit KO attack).
  • Movement lockdown: Only really applicable in strategy games and action games, this locks a character into one place - usually completely anchored, but occasionally allowed a tiny bit of movement. Attacks are unaffected, but may be limited if the unit specializes in melee. Wears off after battle or a limited time. Don't Move in Final Fantasy Tactics is an example, as are the arrows from an Arrow Ninja in Gotcha Force.
  • Full action lockdown: All actions are prevented, but movement is still possible. If movement is not a factor at all, it's the same as a full body lockdown. Generally over after a limited time or battle end, but some varieties can be persistent. Can be combined with movement lockdown to force a full body lockdown. Paralysis in Final Fantasy Tactics is a good example.
  • Partial action lockdown: Only one class of actions is prevented. Depending on the circumstances (like if the abilities in question are cheaper or more accurate than the above), it can be more valuable to use these instead of the above. Generally not persistent. These are often broken down into subtypes.
    • Physical lockdown: Attacks and non-spell abilities are prevented. Numb effects are popularly in this category; the infamous Fanatic's Tower in Final Fantasy VI enforced this on characters.
    • Magical lockdown: Magic (or psionics, if that's what the game is calling it) are prevented. Mute is the most popular form of this.
    • Special lockdown: Everything but basic attacks are prevented. Berserk is the most popular form of this.
  • Selection lockdown: The player's ability to select actions is limited - frequently called "confusion". A couple forms of this as well.
    • Action selection lockdown: The player has absolutely no control at all as to what will happen - any attack could be used, and any target, friend or ally, is legal. These are confusion effects.
    • Target selection lockdown: An infrequent variety where the action can be chosen, but the would-be target is randomly chosen.
    • Enemy selection lockdown: The general class of "charmed, " where the character will only use abilities against the party.

Stat reduction

In general, a temporary reduction of stats. Divided roughly into what stats a game can reduce, and whether it's of limited duration or persistent.

Common ones include:
  • Accuracy reduction - Usually termed "blind."
  • Attack power reduction - Sometimes known as "sap" or "weak", and can be further subdivided if there are multiple forms of attack (ranged/melee, physical/magical).
  • Defense power reduction - Various ways to describe this; frequently subject to the same variety of differentiation as attack power reduction
    • Resistance reduction - Usually themed with an attack type (such as an element), such attacks are functionally the same as above but dependent on a different typing flag.
  • Speed reduction - Often called "slow."
  • Evasion reduction - Frequently overlaps with speed reduction, but may be distinct. Often called "evade down" if so.

Effects sometimes stack multiple of these (such as a virus that saps hitpoints and halves attack until cured). But I think stacked instances can just be cited on both appropriate subpages.

edited 30th Aug '11 12:40:35 PM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
 22 muninn, Tue, 30th Aug '11 11:40:05 AM from Somewhere, out there...
'M not Crazy, just Raven
^ I like that breakdown of things.
 23 32 Footsteps, Tue, 30th Aug '11 12:34:10 PM from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Going to add to the list, since there are common names for the various types of stat decreases.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Cure Candy
Your missing "loss of control of the character" type things like Confusion, Charm, Stop, X Zone (flat out removal from battle but not death), Berserk, Fear etc.

Enhancement status effects such as haste, Quicken, Attack up, Illusion (certain number of hits attacks will miss typically with charges), Invincibility, Added weapon effects (like do +5 fire damage per hit), etc.

edited 30th Aug '11 12:51:45 PM by Raso

 25 32 Footsteps, Tue, 30th Aug '11 1:31:03 PM from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
@24 ...

...

Did you even read what I read?

Confusion is covered by Action selection lockdown or Target selection lockdown (depending on the game). Charm is Enemy selection lockdown. Stop (specificallty cited as such above) is a Full body lockdown. X-Zone doesn't apply at all because it is by default a One-Hit KO and should be cited there. Berserk is specifically noted as the Special lockdown. Fear varies from game to game, although it generally results in a variety of Partial action lockdown.

As for anything regarding a Status Buff... that's its own article and can be discussed in a different TRS.

In short, I did a breakdown of pretty much everything you said that would be covered by this article. Please make sure I actually forgot something before telling me that I have done so.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Page Action: Standard Status Effects
2nd Sep '11 1:18:23 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Total posts: 150
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