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Idealism and Cynicism: Your Mileage May Vary?

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#1: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:46:43 PM

You know in cynical works, idealism is punished but the reverse is true in idealistic works. It just seems that whether is ian idealistic or cynical work, someone has to be singled to deliver the Aesop. Reality is reality but its all in how you perceive it, it almost always about perspective. I myself don't seem to agree with either viewpoints but I do see the value in both perspective. I always look out for the best and expect the worst, I try not to keep my hopes up so they don't get dashed and I have dreams but I am grounded in reality. With athat said, I wonder if Idealism and Cynicism is just your mileage may vary?

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#2: Aug 11th 2011 at 12:52:02 AM

I think this is another case of writers assuming that the way their lives went is the way everyone's life goes. Some people are just plain luckier.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#3: Aug 11th 2011 at 6:55:29 AM

Indeed it is. We all have different experiences but some of us do share some similar experiences.

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
derpedyderpyderp Since: Jul, 2011
#4: Aug 11th 2011 at 9:30:41 AM

I'm very cynical (although I don't look that way). I didn't choose it as a personal preference but from growing knowledge of the inherent black and whiteness in everything (no matter how repugnant it seems at first glance). Just as bad things can have some good qualities, it's vice versa with good things having bad qualities. Such thinking makes me feel both good and depressed at the same time (because it's hard to rail against something you personally don't like if you think that everything's a gray area). For example, I think world peace is not something people should aim for as it can lead to complacency and difficulty understanding meaning behind suffering and hardship.

GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#5: Aug 11th 2011 at 12:40:26 PM

I'm an idealist. I know because I've shaken off a lot of things that have shaken those ideals, and I have remained more or less steady in my vision of how things should be, rather than resigning myself to how things are.

Everyone tries to be realistic, but cynicists seem like they've just given up on hoping for a better world. I follow the motto of hope for the best but plan for the worst; but that doesn't mean you stop hoping and striving for the best.

Even if things are not going to be perfect, the idealist who looks in the positive direction, while accepting the ball and chain around everyones collective ankles, can at least seize opportunities to make things better, by however small a margin.

They cynic can only make things worse. I will not be that person. I have decided that.

edited 11th Aug '11 12:40:58 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#6: Aug 11th 2011 at 12:46:52 PM

Once upon a time, I was an idealist. Do you know what my dream as a child was? To see the US, Canada, Mexico, Europe, and Russia all give up on their troubles and join as one big super nation so they could get along.

Yeah, bullshit.

Now you can find me somewhere far to the cynical end of the scale. If you're having a good day, don't ask me for my opinion, that's for sure.

I am now known as Flyboy.
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#7: Aug 11th 2011 at 12:51:00 PM

You're only a cynic if you abandon your moral compass. Unless you start behaving in a self-serving manner out of that window of hopelessness, you're not a cynic. You're a Knight in Sour Armour.

Things may be bad. Thats no excuse to make it worse. That goes for all of us.

edited 11th Aug '11 12:51:30 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#8: Aug 11th 2011 at 12:56:32 PM

I may not have abandoned my own moral compass, but I subscribe to enough moral relativism to believe that morality is pointless in the end, anyhow. Knight in Sour Armor is the least you could describe me as.

I am now known as Flyboy.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#9: Aug 11th 2011 at 3:53:24 PM

Well, there may be cases where someone's cynicism is justified.

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#10: Aug 11th 2011 at 8:57:26 PM

Defining the terms can get a little weird—it's apparently "idealistic" to believe that anyone who opposes you is evil, and "cynical" to believe they're misguided.

edited 11th Aug '11 8:57:55 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#11: Aug 12th 2011 at 7:04:28 AM

[up]

Shouldn't those be reversed?

Anyway, not sure what to put myself as. I prefer idealistic works, but sometimes they get done so poorly, it's no wonder people tend to think cynical means more realistic. You might recall I've written a few topics on idealism and cynicism, and I will say the same thing here that I've said in some of those. Don't be too much of one. Have a bit of both. As others here have put it, hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

I'll also say this: if it seems like there's nothing good in the world, then that's because you're missing those good things. If there is true evil out there, it's not more powerful, just easier to notice.

Handsome Rob, Out.

One Strip! One Strip!
Otato Since: Aug, 2011
#12: Sep 4th 2011 at 4:53:11 PM

I know I'm very idealistic, but I still feel that I approach things logically and treat ideas very cynically, but mostly in order to reconstruct them idealistically again afterwords.

From how I've seen it work out, idealism is all about change: one can have very skewed ideals and make the world a terrible place with idealism, but if your ideals are solid, you (and those you inspire) can change the world very positively. Cynicism is about survival and endurance: cynicism will ALWAYS protect you from being hurt, but in exchange, you may fail to accomplish anything when you take it too far, leaving the world just as hard or harder to deal with for others.

It's less 'Your Milage May Vary' for me, and more along the lines of 'there's a time and a place for everything.'

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#13: Sep 4th 2011 at 4:57:19 PM

I have found a happy medium to tell exactly what I am: a pessimistic idealist who tries and fails miserably to be cynical. [lol]

I am now known as Flyboy.
Enthryn (they/them) Since: Nov, 2010
(they/them)
#14: Sep 4th 2011 at 5:23:03 PM

I'm both idealistic and cynical: I have very strongly held ideals, but I recognize that they have almost no chance of being realized to any significant degree, and I'm generally quite pessimistic. I also don't think that people are generally good or bad; rather, they're mostly selfish, amoral, ignorant, or apathetic.

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#15: Sep 4th 2011 at 7:09:38 PM

The opposite of cynicism isn't idealism, it's being naive. You can be an idealist (that is, you can have a set of values and ideals that you stand by), but recognize that most people have selfish motivations (even if they won't admit it to themselves), that it is safer to rely on someone's personal failings than on their virtues, and that people in general need to be kept in line in order to keep society running properly. It's no surprise that Deconstructions tend to lean on the cynical side, since the cynical point of view is usually the most realistic.

However, with that said, that doesn't mean that it's impossible to change what you want to, or impose your values on the world around you; it just means that you need to take the inherent failings of all humans into account. Expecting them to be what they are not is foolish; using their failings to your advantage is the only way that idealism can work.

By the way, this is the main reason communism doesn't work; it's far too naive to believe that people are all going to want to play nice and share everything; it's why every communist state is a People's Republic of Tyranny, since it could not operate otherwise, and the people who make it to the top of these systems are never going to want to let go of their power, especially not after putting in all that work to get where they did. Capitalism, on the other hand, is much more realistic, since it seeks to use people's flaws (in this case, Greed) for a common gain.

edited 4th Sep '11 8:05:45 PM by tropetown

chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#16: Sep 4th 2011 at 8:15:39 PM

I lean towards idealist. Although I sometimes feel like the Only Sane Man in the classroom or lunchroom, my progressions ends with me thinking "Everything will get better." My writing reflects this.

Now, is it better to be an idealist, or a realist?

What is opposite of a romantic?

edited 4th Sep '11 8:17:19 PM by chihuahua0

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#17: Sep 4th 2011 at 8:19:34 PM

For your first question: I don't know, since I consider myself to be both. If I had to choose, though, I'd say being an idealist with realists around to keep you grounded would be best.

As for your second question... the opposite of a romantic is boring. [lol]

edited 4th Sep '11 8:19:48 PM by tropetown

KageNara Since: May, 2011
#18: Feb 10th 2013 at 8:46:03 PM

Some cynics are arrogant. They think if THEY experienced it, it's the truth about the world.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#19: Feb 10th 2013 at 9:53:54 PM

I suppose you are right about that but it goes both ways you know.

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#20: Feb 11th 2013 at 2:05:09 AM

Cynicism is destructive and unproductive. Realism is more useful. You can be an idealist in your ends, and a realist in your means. For example, I believe in the Enlightenment, in human progress, in Reason and in the inherent nature of Humankind towards cooperation and solidarity. It doesn't stop me from also believing that progress, as beautiful and glorious as it is, cannot be achieved solely through dialogue or peaceful means. Force, violent change, impositions of opinions or policies are also a means to progress, albeit less desirable means.

Use whatever method is required in the context of your situation. If compromise is required, so be it. If forceful change is needed, so be it. All in the struggle towards progress, greater freedom, equality and advancement.

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
Alma The Harbinger of Strange from Coruscant Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Strange
#21: Feb 11th 2013 at 3:55:04 PM

A quote relevant to this conversation:

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw

Tropetown's post sounds like Hobbes Was Right to me, and I like that. Humans are not all bastards, but tend to be selfish—which does not necessarily equal bastardry. It's important to understand the distinction between being selfish and being an asshole. Remember, we are animals, and like all animals we're programmed to act in our own interests, to ensure our own survival so that we may go on to reproduce and continue the species. Such behaviour isn't necessarily malicious; most of the time it's just thoughtless, like buying the last cake with 10 people waiting in line behind you. Selfish behaviours and thought patterns can be found in even the most saintly, and to have no such thoughts is to not be human. But it does mean we can't be relied on to coexist peacefully, not when there are billions of people operating on the same programming. Conflict is inevitable. Humans Are Flawed, Humans Are Morons.

It's a basic truth of our world.

It's the reason racism, sexism and all other forms of bigotry will never truly die, and even if they did, we would invent new bigotries. I'm reading "Amped" by Daniel H. Wilson, in which people with amps (brain-computer interfaces) are ostracized for their intellectual superiority. There was a time when we relied on prejudice, in the form of a general fear of the unknown, to survive, and it's endured ever since. It's an inextricable part of the human psyche, and the only way to get rid of it would be to somehow rewrite the collective unconscious—an ethically contentious idea, to say the least. Bigotries can be diminished (it can't be argued that the state of women's rights today isn't much better than it was a hundred years ago, but IMO humanity's view of women has changed very little) or ignored (for example, thinking bigoted thoughts without expressing them), but at the end of the day, they're still THERE.

It's the reason humans are unfit to govern themselves. All major flaws in governmental or economical models are human flaws. The theory may be sound, but at the end of the day, it depends on humans to execute it. Tropetown talked about Communism—perfect example. If people could be relied on to be selfless and work together for the betterment of a community, it would have worked. But we are flawed, and therefore our methods of governing ourselves are flawed. The only form of human-run government which I think has a ghost of a chance of working is a dictatorship—Hobbes Was Right. But utopia, in which everyone is accounted for and treated fairly, can't be achieved as long as humans are in charge. It would take an impartial third party to make that happen—an AI, for example, though there are problems inherent in that too.

I've discussed the problem at length with a friend and while he believes humanity as a whole can improve, I'm not so sure. I believe our animal selves hold us back and if there is to be any serious progress in moving towards a truly egalitarian state, it will be through transhumanism.

The thing is, you have to be OK with living in an imperfect world, or you'll go nuts/kill yourself. I was almost there. Then my psychiatrist said something about Freud's definition of mental health which I found to be quite profound, and I realized the key to fitting into the world is actually quite simple. Love and work—that's what Freud called good mental health. I like it because it has multiple interpretations, but the two things are always closely related. It can mean love as in empathy for other human beings, and work as in a willingness to coexist with them; or it can mean love as in a love for family, friends, or a significant other, and work as in finding a cause or passion that sustains you.

Of course, it doesn't mean it's always easy to keep it in perspective, and I still do have days when I'd rather just check out of the world. But I'm still here... I guess that's something.

edited 11th Feb '13 4:07:36 PM by Alma

You need an adult.
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#22: Feb 11th 2013 at 4:07:17 PM

A cynic i someone who looks at the world and themselves and doesn't lie to themselves about what they see.

Which should give you a pretty good idea of what end of the scale I stand on.

Trump delenda est
Erufu Since: Feb, 2013
#23: Feb 15th 2013 at 11:50:47 AM

[up] So pointing out everything negative is the truth?And positive thinking is lying to yourself?

The thing is,negative stuff does affect us harder and sometimes it muddles our perception of the good stuff that happen,or those things can' t give us the same pleasure as before cause people can' t get out of their negative mindset.I can' t help but think cynicism is refusal to take life in your own hand and make it better,instead of complaining about everything,whetever it directly affects you or not,like trying to prove there is no point in trying.And at the same time.cynics like to think their opinions are more profound and deeper just to get a an ego boost without actually achieving anything that would give them real confidence. Some people do suffer genuine hardships,and I understand that positive thinking would feel insulting in such cases,but there really is no reason a young,healthy person should feel that way.

Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#24: Feb 15th 2013 at 2:14:38 PM

I'm both idealistic and cynical: I have very strongly held ideals, but I recognize that they have almost no chance of being realized to any significant degree, and I'm generally quite pessimistic. I also don't think that people are generally good or bad; rather, they're mostly selfish, amoral, ignorant, or apathetic.

Pretty much my position. And cynics are one kind of apathetic.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#25: Feb 15th 2013 at 3:58:07 PM

One: Holy Necropost, Batman! Two: In my experience, cynicism is largely something that adolescents mistake for mental maturity, and as such, adopt as well. I should know, I used to be kinda like that.

These days, I prefer more of a realistic optimism.


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