Same as Indy Ploy: Strategy Schmategy

Strategy, Schmategy is the same as Indy Ploy. Though it tries to claim the later is different. To quote Strategy, Schmategy (emphasis mine):

to quote Indy Ploy (again emphasis mine):

See the resemblances?

Strategy, Schmategy 's page tries to claim that Indy Ploy is "where a character doesn't have a plan originally, but comes up with new ones on the fly" which is not specifically true, or supported by the later's definition, as it specifically mentions there may very well be no plan at all.

Yeah, I am not really seeing the distinction between the two tropes either. I think these parts of the two tropes descriptions seems incredibly similar. If Strategy, Schmategy is a separate trope from Indy Ploy, then I think that at the very least its description needs to be changed a bit.

From Indy Ploy:

From Strategy, Schmategy:

edited 3rd Aug '11 4:42:08 PM by LouieW

I'm not seeing any difference, really.

That sounds like Schrödinger Fu.

not really. Confusion Fu is about fighting characters with unpredictable move set

T His is about not having a plan. IE: Indy Ploy

Taking a look at the examples (and having a little knowledge of both the Trope Namers), the distinction seems clear enough to me. With an Indy Ploy, you're unpredictable because you're making it up as you go along, figuring things out on the fly instead of in advance. With Strategy, Schmategy, you're unpredictable because you're basically just flailing around randomly. If you're playing chess and picking a random piece to move each turn, that's Strategy, Schmategy.

edited 3rd Aug '11 6:18:48 PM by troacctid

Okay, but in practice how do you tell the difference between a character who's winging it because he's just that cool, and one who's winging it because he doesn't have a clue? Is the character an idiot, or using Obfuscating Stupidity, or both?

Which one is Jack Sparrow? I'm sure all his fans will claim the former, but characters in the film suggest he's the latter. Conversely, what about Johnny English? Many watchers will think the latter, but in-universe everyone believes the former.

edited 3rd Aug '11 7:06:03 PM by Spark9

Except most of the examples have nothing to do with randomness

Most of them are unskilled (like Button Mashing types) vs Skilled person.

And Button Mashing is not "Randomness" And unskilled person do what they do because they do think it's the best maneuver - foolishly or not.

Yeah, like I said, flailing around.

Jack Sparrow is probably Xanatos Speed Chess.

But flailing around isn't "No strategy" so much as a "Bad or deficient one due to lack of knowledge" Or "Made up on the fly" ie: Indy Ploy.

edited 3rd Aug '11 7:12:50 PM by Ghilz

Indy Ploy is about making up a strategy on the fly, right?

Strategy, Schmategy is about not making up a strategy at all.

That's a fundamental difference right there.

My point is, almost none of the examples support that.

Eh, all the examples on the Strategy, Schmategy page seem to be about characters so inexperienced and hence utterly planless that they manage to foil more skilled opponents.

edited 3rd Aug '11 7:32:42 PM by StarryEyed

Yup. Reading through the page, I only see examples of people who have no idea what to do.

This is the difference I'm getting.

Indy Ploy is making it up as you go along. Example: Indy needs to escape, ah there is an open window, I'll dive through it and figure out how to safely land after I'm already committed to going through the window.

Strategy, Schmategy is about doing something without any plan for it to improve things. Example: Joe is trying to beat Mastermind at a game. Joe doesn't know the rules, or the scoring system, so he's just going to move pieces randomly and hope he wins.

If this is the case the new trope needs to be written very clearly to show the difference.

edited 4th Aug '11 9:03:09 PM by Sackett

Thank you Sackett. You very clearly articulated the difference I see as well. You have a strategy in a game or a sport. It's general, like, "Hit on 16 or lower, Stand on 17 or higher" is a strategy in Blackjack. It's not a plan — that's a series of steps to be taken in order to resolve a situation.

I always thought Indy Ploy involved making up plans on your feet.

For all intents and purposes, "strategy" is a synonym for "plan".

I think this needs a rewrite to make that more clear then. And possibly a rename. Flailing Newbie Plan?

I'm not seeing the need for a rename.

While plan and strategy can be synonymous in some cases, they are not synonymous in all cases. You don't have a plan for how you play a game of poker or chess. You may or may not have a strategy. Calling something a "plan" implies that you know each step you're going to take, in order, in advance. A strategy can and often is much vaguer.

Redirects then? It's not very searchable.

Bumping

Also, all the debate about the difference between "plan" and "strategy" is null when you realize the page in question only refers to plans - not strategies. Also, the mere fact we are having this debate shows that the distinction is less than clear to most readers. Heck, the word strategy, outside of the title, is never brought up in the description until the "compare with" stuff - then it's for another trope.

@Madrugada: I'd point out that while your distinction is interesting, but the Merriam Webster describes "plan" and "strategy" as synonyms. We are going to have really hard time building a page around a distinction that the dictionary itself does not support.

And this does not remove what I mentioned in the OP, the description attempts to give Indy Ploy a distinction Indy Ploy's description DOES NOT SUPPORT.

edited 20th Aug '11 3:06:31 PM by Ghilz

The issue: people are having difficulty determining the difference between Strategy, Schmategy and Indy Ploy. The difference appears to me as follows:

Indy Ploy: The character makes up each step as he goes along. He knows what he is doing, but not what he will be doing in ten second's time.

Strategy, Schmategy: The character has no idea what they are doing, even as they are doing it. Their behavior is completely random, contrast Confusion Fu where it only appears random. Before we get into comparing this trope and Confusion Fu, I believe it's easy to determine whether the character knows what they are doing. They may even have to know what they are doing for their own brand of Confusion Fu to work.

The solution: Rewrite or delete any offending areas of the article that obfuscate the distinction between this and similar tropes.

Now, a quick question. In an episode of One Piece, the main character was facing someone who could read his mind. He attempted to defeat him by letting his body flail about on its own with no conscious effort from himself, later trying an attack that hit numerous random areas behind himself where he can not see. This was his strategy. Does this count as an example? If so, I feel the article also needs a rename. Right now it looks like Leeroy Jenkins, where a character charges in without a plan and actively eschews them, but may be a skilled warrior who knows what they're doing in the heat of battle.

edited 23rd Aug '11 10:17:52 AM by GigaHand

The main problem here seems to be the phrase "he has no idea what he's doing", which can be both taken literally (he has no idea what activities he is currently involved in) and figuratively (he sucks at whatever he's trying to do).

Indy Ploy is definitely the healthier of the two tropes, so I'd suggest leaving it alone and changing Strategy, Schmategy to make the two more distinct.

I think Giga Hand's got the basic idea down. Indy Ploy: making up a plan as you go along. Strategy, Schmategy: screwing up someone else's plan by acting randomly (usually because you have no experience in the activity in question). Strategy, Schmategy definitely needs a rename. Something about beginner's luck or randomness vs experience?