Not really descriptive, rename: Rei Ayanami Expy

Note: Much of the arguments presented are shared by the ones that I gave in the TRS thread for Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere (trope is, as of 30/31 July, named Flat Fearsome Female), because of very similar circumstances and issues.

Back when this trope was first launched as Pale Haired Strange Kuudere, it was promptly cut by Fast Eddie within a couple of hours of its launch, with the stated reason being "English-only titles". Later on, the reason became "no trope name should require prior understanding of another trope to understand it", i.e. "no trope names that contain other trope names unless they are generally understandable at first glance to someone who never read/heard of the name before."

This approach poses several serious problems due to the following:

1. The character type has the following indispensable cornerstones:
   1. Starts off as a Kuudere whose cold side is either so cold or prevalent that she is often mistaken for a truly Emotionless Girl. She may or may not remain in the Kuudere mould by the end of the story, but she usually becomes more... expressive, or easier to approach and/or interact with than at the start.
      1. She lmost always undergoes a Become A Real Girl plot (especially if she has an unjustified reputation as an Emotionless Girl), either as a personal objective that she seeks or due to the other characters trying to help her become more outgoing/friendlier/etc..
   2. Light/pale hair color, often blue or bluish; White-Haired Pretty Girl variations are also not unheard of.
   3. A Strange Girl, due to being either Not Quite Human, or a Broken Bird with a Dark and Troubled Past.
2. Besides the optional traits listed on the page, it should be noted that several examples are not direct expies of Trope Codifier Rei Ayanami herself, but rather are expies of her expies (e.g. Tabitha via Yuki).
3. The character type is by necessity Japanese media-exclusive, as it's explicitly an Expy of a specific anime/manga character; the only place you would find a non-Japanese media example is in Animesque works, for obvious reasons.
4. Rei Ayanami Expy is obscure to newcomers to the anime/manga fandom scene, and it's been a rule of the thumb to value descriptiveness over naming after characters, Grandfather Clause-covered cases like Char Clone being the exception.
   1. That said, Rei Ayanami Expy is a good redirect. However, Pale Haired Emotionless Girl is not; it's too narrow by ignoring several crucial components of the character type, and I thus suggest cutting it altogether.

See also the TRS thread on Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere, since judgements there can affect the course of this thread too. However, please keep the discussion on-topic on each thread.

If there any points that I have forgotten to list, inform me and I will add them.

So... Objective: Come up with a better name instead of Rei Ayanami Expy. Imperative: Balance between clarity and accuracy; no unfairly biased emphasis of one over the other.

I honestly didn't see a problem with Pale Haired Emotionless Girl. I know she's technically a Kuudere, but when most people are first introduced to the character she appears to be emotionless to the point that to argue otherwise, even if it's technically true, is just semantics.

Yeah, but there's still a fundamental difference; there's a reason why Emotionless Girl's article says "Contrast with Kuudere, who may initially appear emotionless but in fact has a cute inner side". And it still ignores the Strange Girl component, though.

edited 30th Jul '11 3:52:19 PM by MarqFJA

Don't see any reason why you can't use Emotionless Girl instead of kuudere. I mean, it's already pretty rare for an emotionless girl to really be emotionless instead of either deadpan or a kuudere.

^ So?

edited 30th Jul '11 3:50:50 PM by Arha

Ninja'd. And if that's the case, then the Emotionless Girl article is need of significant rewriting, because as it stands, the character type is normally emotionless, with "emotional repressment" being a twist.

edited 30th Jul '11 3:55:10 PM by MarqFJA

Even Rei herself at a cute side. So does Yuki Nagato. You'll be pretty hard pressed to find someone who's really emotionless. Well, I'm sure you could find some, but for all intents and purposes emotionless girl works just as well or better.

^ I don't necessarily disagree with that since I've pretty much convinced myself that an emotionless girl is just a kuudere with a poker face, but that's not really the point, is it? We're dealing with this trope.

edited 30th Jul '11 3:57:12 PM by Arha

Yeah, and Kuudere has specific connotations that Emotionless Girl does not have, and fits this character type better. Even Emotionally Repressed Girl does not necessarily have a cute inner side.

edited 30th Jul '11 3:59:44 PM by MarqFJA

How so? Emotionless Girl really just seems to be Kuudere But More Blankfaced. Seriously, name me an emotionless girl who is not arguably a kuudere. And since the Rei clones are basically all blank faced isn't that better? It's a matter of degree or whatever. And Rei is more of an emotionless girl than a kuudere in the first place.

I should probably make it clear that I don't really think they're the same trope. Just that emotionless girl seems to act as a subtrope of kuudere.

edited 30th Jul '11 4:07:45 PM by Arha

I just think emotionless girl is close enough to the truth of it that it gets the point across, and further elaboration on the characters personality on the page is all that's really needed, which the trope page does have. Emotionless Girl is a much closer approximation to describing the Kuudere tendencies of the character than say any of the alternatives posed to replace Tsundere in Tiny Tyrranical Tsundere. I don't think there is such thing as a TRULY emotionless character, and I think most people agree and understand that about that trope and won't immediately think this character literally has no emotions rather than initially appearing to. And the characters do start off appearing this way in-universe, it's only later that their Kuudere status is revealed.

edited 30th Jul '11 4:24:11 PM by NoirGrimoir

Or how about Strange Emotionless Bluenette?

And if you really want it can be Pale Haired Strange Emotionless Girl. If you really need to get that last reference in.

That's why I suggested Strange Emotionless Bluenette, it's the same but shorter, pretty much.

For the record, TTT/FFF appears to be on the way to be renamed Shana Clone.

So if that happens, it'll have set the best practice: if a character is a Fountain of Expies, the trope born from it is named after them.

I'd rather we didn't do that. It's happening with Shana Clone because the only decent alternative was overruled whereas we have multiple perfectly serviceable names for this one.

I can kind of see the point of being descriptive with both tropes, since they've become their own character archetype and most aren't just direct call-backs to the original, unlike how Char Clone is.

Emotionless Girl and Kuudere are not the same trope but they often overlap.

Emotionless Girl is almost always later revealed to just have very deeply repressed emotions.

Rei is the Emotionless Girl type of Kuudere, and so are all her expies aren't they?

The only ones I can think of off hand Yuki Nagato and Kanade (Angel Beats) are Emotionless Girls.

So I think Pale Haired Emotionless Girl would be a fine name.

Rei Clone would be my second choice. Better than "Expy"

edited 30th Jul '11 6:50:28 PM by Sackett

Rei Clone makes me think of the time there were about a hundred of her. Much more confusing.

Plus Rei is a fairly common name.

It severely fails the One Mario Limit even if we're just talking anime. Sailor Moon comes to mind.

Rei is not an uncommon name, no. So, what, should we go for something like Pale Haired Emotionless Girl or Strange Emotionless Bluenette? If it's just those two, I prefer the former.

Ayanami Archetype?

I don't mind Pale Haired Emotionless Girl and Strange Emotionless Bluenette, but can we go for something that.. flows(?) better. Something punnier?

Pale Haired Emotionless Girl is by far my favourite.

That doesn't get the point across that these girls are Kuudere though they have that inner emotion only brought around by a specific person or thing. (most of the time it's the main character.) It would be misuse without it. These girls use When She Smiles to great effect.

edited 31st Jul '11 6:55:19 AM by Raso

I think I'll start up a Trope Talk page to determine the actual distinctions between Emotionless Girl and Kuudere, and see what comes out of that. In the meantime, I throw my vote for either Pale Haired Strange Kuudere, Pale Strange Kuudere or Pale Strange Emotionless Girl; the latter two are intended to also encompass the "paleness" of skin color aspect.

"Ayanami Archetype" is just as obscure as naming it after "Rei", so no.

It looks from the Tiny Tyranical Tsundere thread that we are moving towards a policy of naming Expy tropes after the original source of the Expies.

Although I do think we should add the other more descriptive titles as redirects to make it more searchable.