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We should probably rename this.: Critical Existence Failure

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SoWeAteThem Reap the wild wiiiind... from The Maneating Kelp-blob Since: Jun, 2010
Reap the wild wiiiind...
#1: Jul 21st 2011 at 10:50:27 PM

The trope in question is about critical condition being nonexistent.
However, with the title it currently has, it's essentially confused with the sudden nonexistence of anything—it's constantly potholed as such. Just now, I had to remove a pothole from Author Existence Failure. This is just one instance. It is nowhere's near the first, nor will it be the last.
Either way, we need a rename. I have a proposal or two, but I think I should wait to get a word in from you people first, both as to what you think would be a good name and as to whether it should be renamed in the first place.

edited 21st Jul '11 11:21:13 PM by SoWeAteThem

Out eating the neighbors' tax forms, should be back soon.
HeavyDDR Who's Vergo-san. from Central Texas Since: Jul, 2009
Who's Vergo-san.
#2: Jul 21st 2011 at 11:12:06 PM

I agree. I see the term being used all the time to the point that I've forgotten what the trope actually is.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#3: Jul 21st 2011 at 11:21:49 PM

I'm rather fond of this name, but if it's causing misuse that's certainly a reason to rename. Honestly though, I can't really think of what situations it could be misused in. Can I have some more examples?

DRCEQ Since: Oct, 2009
#4: Jul 21st 2011 at 11:59:14 PM

I never liked the name from the start. It's about how a character in a game will always perform in top peak physical condition regardless of how much damage they take, but if they lose that last HP point to tripping and falling over, they die, usually explode into Ludicrous Gibs.

I find it very hard to piece together this trope from the current name.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#5: Jul 22nd 2011 at 8:07:26 AM

I have never personally had any problems with the name — the notion being that the only effect damage/injury has on a character is that you remove their last Hit Point and they suddenly cease to exist. BTW, Googling the term (with quotes) returns 15,000 hits, 8,000 if you exclude TV Tropes. We may have coined the term, but it seems some other people are latching on to the name themselves.

But, checking for misuse should definitely get done here, and for a trope with over 6,000 inbounds that's almost mandatory anyway. Current wikilinks are 511, should probably focus on non-videogame pages. This trope also has one Bad Snowclone called Critical Existence Assistance.

And yes, I can see how this is not necessarily a videogame trope, if in other media you have characters who can keep fighting until a certain arbitrary threshold at which point they suddenly keel over.

edited 22nd Jul '11 8:12:43 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
LiberatedLiberater 奇跡の魔女 from [DATA EXPUNGED] Since: Jun, 2011
奇跡の魔女
#6: Jul 22nd 2011 at 8:17:02 AM

[up] How many of those hits actually use the definition that we use?

MAL || vndb || Blog
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#8: Jul 22nd 2011 at 8:49:44 AM

I've seen it mis-potholed a few times (TV tropes drinking game comes to mind), but never in actual examples.

SalFishFin Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Jul 22nd 2011 at 9:40:05 AM

The basis for this trope name is the D&D term "Critical Failure" which happens on a roll of 1. This trope is that you get killed by a scratch. You failed to exist, and it was a Critical Fail.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#10: Jul 22nd 2011 at 10:21:58 AM

Going to do some misuse check (Not gonna be a representative sample, so other people can help)

  1. Alien Soldier: Correct
  2. Air Force Delta: Correct
  3. Age Of Mythology: Correct
  4. Altitude: Incorrect. Sink Hole for death.
  5. UsefulNotes.American Political System: Incorrect. Potholed to mean death.
  6. And the Adventure Continues: Sink Hole. Used for mere Death.
  7. Batman Arkham Asylum: Correct
  8. Battlefield Series: Correct
  9. Characters.Bayonetta: Correct.
  10. Arbitrary Gun Power: Correct
  11. Attack! Attack! Attack!: Correct
  12. Artifact of Doom: Incorrect. Used to refer to death/instant disintegration.
  13. Bloodline Champions: No details given. But youtube tells me Correct.
  14. Body Armor as Hit Points: Borderline. Used to refer to body armor vanishing when it runs out, rather than the player dying. I'd count it as misuse, though just barely
  15. Book Of Swords: Not sure.
  16. Boom, Headshot!: Correct
  17. Boss Rush: Not sure. Sink Hole for "Health"
  18. Bottomless Bladder: Correct
  19. Breakable Weapons: Correct
  20. Break Meter: Correct
  21. Bulletstorm: Correct
  22. Burning Wheel: Correct
  23. Call a Hit Point a "Smeerp": Correct
  24. Captain Commando: Correct
  25. Cast from Hit Points: Correct

Tally so far: 5 Incorrect. 2 Unsure. 18 Correct.

edited 22nd Jul '11 10:26:58 AM by Ghilz

Spark9 Gentleman Troper! from Castle Wulfenbach Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Gentleman Troper!
#11: Jul 22nd 2011 at 2:00:56 PM

[up] If this trope is named after rolling a one in D&D, then that makes it a bad Snow Clone. CEF is completely unrelated to rolling a one, and for several decades now D&D is not an example of this trope (as it has the "unconscious" condition between "fine" and "dead").

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#12: Jul 22nd 2011 at 2:04:01 PM

Technically D&D IS an example (though a more complex one), since there's no difference in one's abilities between having full hp, or 1*

. Only when you hit 0 do you drop unconscious.

edited 22nd Jul '11 2:04:38 PM by Ghilz

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#13: Jul 22nd 2011 at 6:06:37 PM

I think the Body Armor as Hit Points is correct. "Your armor provides full effect until it's all gone" strikes me as a correct usage. But I might be misreading it.

Fight smart, not fair.
EffStar Since: Feb, 2011
#14: Jul 31st 2011 at 4:56:18 AM

I always liked this trope's name; I can't think of a better one. For what it's worth, I never interpreted it as the nonexistence of a critical condition; I see it more as an instant transition from alive and healthy to dead, even if the final blow is inappropriately weak. A Critical Failure to remain alive, if you will. A dog bites you, but you're okay (97 HP). A man shoots you, but you're okay (80 HP). A rocket explodes on your face, but you're okay (1 HP). A 4-year-old kicks you, you are completely dead (0 HP).

I don't know about CEF being misused, but the biggest problem that I see with the trope's own example section is the disproportionate number of aversions listed... maybe even more than the non-aversions. People seem desperate to point out all the places where this trope doesn't apply rather than listing them on Subsystem Damage. If this does get renamed, I think we should also have a new name for Subsystem Damage that is more obviously the opposite trope.

Oh, and there's a hell of a lot of gun wank natter going on in the Real Life heading.

edited 31st Jul '11 5:08:59 AM by EffStar

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#15: Jul 31st 2011 at 6:49:38 AM

...Why the hell should a videogame-focused trope even have a RL section, anyway?

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#16: Jul 31st 2011 at 7:17:21 AM

Because people try to shoehorn RL everywhere. Just cut it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DiamondWeapon Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Sep 23rd 2011 at 6:18:16 AM

As a reference to the critical threshold (0 HP) at which a video game character abruptly ceases to exist or changes state from "alive" to "dead" the name is very accurate.

I've certainly never thought of it as "absense of a critical condition" or as a reference to some D&D mechanic.

Routerie Since: Oct, 2011
#18: Sep 23rd 2011 at 1:53:43 PM

Wait, that's what this trope is supposed to mean? Wow. We should have just named it Cute Cat. People who'd read the page would still get the meaning right, everyone else still wouldn't and the page would get TONS of hits.

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:53:59 PM by Routerie

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#19: Sep 24th 2011 at 3:41:53 PM

I vote no on rename. It's a widely-used trope, with healthy wicks and redirects, and little misuse (most of that being for "death", which we'd probably get no matter what the title was).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#20: Sep 24th 2011 at 4:02:06 PM

[up]20% misuse (if the sample above is indicative) is hardly what I'd call "little".

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#21: Sep 24th 2011 at 4:19:24 PM

It's not that big a deal, as such things go. Especially given that of the five misuses, three were misusing it as "death", one as "instant, total disintegration", and one as "Hit Points", all of which are closely related concepts. It doesn't seem to me that there isn't much evidence of people misunderstanding the trope, and (like I said in my earlier post), I don't think a rename would help stop misuse like what Ghilz found.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DiamondWeapon Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Sep 26th 2011 at 11:42:51 AM

[up] Agreed. Regardless of the name, some people are going to hastily reduce this trope to "instant death."

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#23: Sep 26th 2011 at 1:06:06 PM

Perfect Health Until Death?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#25: Sep 26th 2011 at 1:56:15 PM

Either Perfect Health Or Death?

Perfect Health Even At 1 Hit Point?

edited 26th Sep '11 1:56:52 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Total posts: 26
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