Yes, I get it, people don't like em, but seriously, the page is like 90% bile. Going to declare several RL people as evil and stuff.

Kill It with Fire. Enough is enough.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I wouldn't say 90%, but yeah, way too much. I'll start some edits.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Not to mention it's loaded with completely inaccessible jargon, and should probably be on Useful Notes to begin with.

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

Technically, the Microsoft company has a few video games under their belt, albeit through smaller subteams/studios, hence its current status as a creator.

edited 18th Jul '11 1:36:02 PM by MangaManiac

If it's a creator then it should index the games it created, and nothing more. Chop the description and the "trope list".

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

By chop, do you mean remove completely? If so, I disagree. There could probably be about a paragraph or so on what kind of video games they develop and their exact role in them (e.g. are they just funding the studios that make 'em, or are they directly developing and adding content to them). Maybe even a bit on what kind of tropes they often use. Microsoft did make the Xbox, after all.

Still though, giant trim.

edited 18th Jul '11 2:00:42 PM by MangaManiac

Well, I mean prune the description. It can still have some, just to talk about what it makes and not to hate on it, though.

I cutlist the YMMV subpage... sheesh.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Okay, how's this for a description. It's pretty short, and I'm rewriting it almost completely so...

Description

Microsoft is a company famous for their development of PCs, as well as being the creators of the Xbox and Xbox 360 (and the Xbox Live Arcade by extension). Microsoft has developed several games, such as the Microsoft Flight Simulator, as well as being the owners of several Video Game-making studios.

---

Games Microsoft have been involved with:

• Age Of Empires through Ensemble.
• Fable II through Lionhead Studios.
• Viva Pinata, through Rare.

---

edited 18th Jul '11 2:08:53 PM by MangaManiac

I already did a rewrite of my own and posted it. This article was on the Cut List, so I figured drastic measures were needed.

Yours would probably be better. But this only needed repair, and I thought I knew enough for something slightly more neutral...

There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney

Quibble with the suggested rewrite: Microsoft, as far as I know (which is pretty far), has never "developed PCs". They develop software for PCs.

edit: fix formatting

edited 18th Jul '11 5:06:48 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I asked this elsewhere first, but I'll ask here as well.

Does commissioning commercials count as being a creator?

Fight smart, not fair.

I would say no for two reasons: A) most commercials are actually produced by advertising companies, and B) would open the door for articles on pretty much every company everywhere.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I started an article in Wiki Talk.

Fight smart, not fair.

I would say that advertising campaigns are tropable though. I know we have The Most Interesting Man In The World and The Man Your Man Could Smell Like.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Microsoft is a creator because they create XBoxen, at least some of the software for XBoxen, and a few true PC games.

They made the definitive Minesweeper, the most common vs. of Freecell, a Klondike-type "Solitaire," and several flight simulators. They are creators.

There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney

I don't think it needs cutlisting, but the description clearly needs work, especially when it comes to neutrality. Too many enraged Computer Wars fanboys using this to Complain About Companies They Dont Like.

edited 2nd Aug '11 3:39:08 PM by Gundamforce

The negativity MIGHT be because Microsoft really has done a lot of bad things, far moreso than the average company. If they have a track record of breaking anti-trust laws, subjugating companies that produce quality, then shoving crap into markets where they have no real competition left, it does deserve to be noted, no?

Granted, these things need to be pointed out as objectively as one can, ie:

- They have broken anti-trust laws many times over the years

and not

- They are evil and kniving and break anti-trust laws like the Jerk Asses that they are.

But it still needs to be noted.

In the end, nothing matters, or mattered. So endulge yourself now, your legacy means nothing when humans are extinct.

Yes, that's not a problem. There's an issue however between stating a fact, and having The Evil Empire as the 2nd word of the page!

Bump. The article is still pretty negative, and it reads as half creator, half useful note. Ideas?

Not unless it has anything to do with tropes or works.

Does it?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Comparing this to the page on, for example, Nintendo shows that we are, for the most part, treating companies in the video game industry in the same fashion. That said, looking at pages for other such companies behind production and distribution (e.g. Metro Goldwyn Mayer or Fox) is much different, and I think we could stand to just axe the trope list and keep what's above the line.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Sorry, but no. That applies to a LOT of companies, even the popular darling ones. But you don't see people rushing to point out the sins of those. The negativity is due to one thing—it's a big, obvious hate target.

YES, it's guilty of all of those. NO, it's not the only one. BUT, again, obvious "it's cool to hate on this" target. Neutralize it, and purge any mention of "this fandom says it did this" but "that fandom says that other one did that" crap. Really, most of the annoying amounts of excessive negativity in this site are just people rushing to rant about things everyone else likes to rant about to encourage a circle jerk.

edited 6th Nov '11 6:38:57 AM by Malchus

Yeah, that avatar's a 'Shop of my real face.

Somewhat related, but can we fire off warnings to the people added the negativity in the first place?

Personally I wouldn't go after the original ones since that would be a De Facto punishment, but any who add negativity from now on sure.