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"Genre" screws up references: Super Robot Genre get usage counts

 101 m8e, Sun, 10th Mar '13 6:25:15 AM from Sweden Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
They are real robots and they appear in the genre, I think they should be included. If there is no Super Robot counterparts it might just be one of the things that make real more real.

edited 10th Mar '13 7:07:20 AM by m8e

My cat is a south paw.
 102 Native Jovian, Sun, 10th Mar '13 8:14:53 AM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
Sure, there's Super Robot versions of Powered Armor and the like. Stuff like Guyver (or hell, Iron Man, given that he's an actual superhero) would definitely be super robot powered armor.
 103 Marq FJA, Sun, 10th Mar '13 9:27:19 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Then I say that they should stay (and the description tweaked to include them, if only with a single brief line rather than a complete rewrite), pending a compelling argument to the contrary.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 104 Native Jovian, Wed, 15th May '13 8:03:16 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
Hey, this ended up on the bottom of the TRS pile again, huh?

I finished sorting examples into Sandbox.Real Robot — it's essentially good to go as-is, though it does need a non-placeholder page quote and image.
 105 Septimus Heap, Wed, 22nd May '13 6:55:55 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Thus, can we launch the sandboxes?

 106 Willbyr, Wed, 22nd May '13 9:28:24 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
I like the sandbox for Real Robot...don't see a reason why it couldn't be launched aside from a few ZCEs.

edited 22nd May '13 9:29:54 AM by Willbyr

 107 Native Jovian, Wed, 22nd May '13 6:12:23 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
I've been slowly but steadily sorting examples into their proper (sandbox) pages for... damn, three months now? Okay, really slowly and sorta steadily. Right now Sandbox.Real Robot is the only one that's been completely sorted; Sandbox.Super Robot I started but haven't finished yet. Sandbox.Real Robot Genre and Sandbox.Super Robot Genre are going to be harder, since they require more knowledge of the work in question than just a description of the robots (which is usually present in the examples).

All four pages also need real pagequotes, and two of them need new page images, since the "real" pages share one image and the "super" pages share a second one.

Other than that they've been ready for launch since February, yeah.
 108 Septimus Heap, Thu, 30th May '13 9:02:31 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
How does this discussion affect all these tropes?

 109 Native Jovian, Thu, 30th May '13 5:49:01 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
That discussion was about the difference between "real/super robot" as an individual machine (eg, "the RX-78-2 is a Real Robot as opposed to a Super Robot") and "real/super robot" as a type of fiction (eg, "Gurren Lagann is a Super Robot anime"). We're solving the issue by splitting "machine" versus "type of fiction" into two separate tropes.
Bump. Are there tropers still working on this?

 111 Native Jovian, Sun, 23rd Jun '13 11:16:10 AM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
I've been pretty much the only one working on it for like six months, and that's been proceeding in fits and starts as other things come up and push this down the priority list. At this point, Sandbox.Real Robot is effectively done, Sandbox.Super Robot needs to finish sorting in examples, and both Sandbox.Real Robot Genre and Sandbox.Super Robot Genre haven't had any examples sorted at all.
 112 Septimus Heap, Sun, 23rd Jun '13 11:17:51 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I am more or less waiting for the wick stage.

 113 Septimus Heap, Sun, 28th Jul '13 8:23:23 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Bumping this. For the sandboxes mentioned above that don't have enough examples, would it be an option to YKTTW them?

 114 Native Jovian, Sun, 28th Jul '13 6:25:13 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
The sandboxes just need examples sorted from the current Real Robot Genre and Super Robot Genre pages. There are plenty of examples already on those two pages, they just need to be shuffled into the right sandbox pages.

Frankly, I don't have the time to do it. I started a new position at work recently and it's consuming my free time (I haven't even been home in two weeks; I'm typing this on a tablet in a hotel room). If someone else could step up and do the last little bit of work involved here, then we could finally put this thread to rest.
 115 Septimus Heap, Mon, 29th Jul '13 2:32:10 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Well, I might take the job but I have zero clue of the distinctions. Is it "a robot" vs "a story"?

 116 Native Jovian, Mon, 29th Jul '13 7:56:12 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
It's been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, and there are four sandbox pages (Sandbox.Real Robot, Sandbox.Real Robot Genre, Sandbox.Super Robot, Sandbox.Super Robot Genre) for it, but here's the short version:

  • Real Robot: A mecha treated like a military vehicle
  • Super Robot: A mecha treated like a superhero.
  • Real Robot Genre: Generally character- or plot-driven war stories about more-or-less normal people.
  • Super Robot Genre: Generally action-driven stories about an Ideal Hero (or a team of them) Saving the World, often in a Monster of the Week format.
 117 Septimus Heap, Tue, 13th Aug '13 12:54:29 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
OK, I did some sorting. However, questions about whether "X Robot Genre" needs to be separate from "X Robot" are there, plus, there aren't really many examples. Would anyone mind to comment?

 118 Native Jovian, Tue, 13th Aug '13 9:22:13 AM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
We've had the "mecha vs genre" discussion more than once. We have examples of real robots showing up in the super robot genre and vice versa, which is pretty convincing evidence that they're separate tropes. What other questions were there? I'll do my best to answer them.
 119 Septimus Heap, Fri, 13th Sep '13 1:03:07 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
OK, it seems like Super Robot is the only thing that needs examples now.

 120 Cider, Wed, 9th Oct '13 1:12:05 PM from Not New York Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
This is still going? And how did I miss this exchange.

It is pretty easy to have a monster of the week story about an amazing machine that fights the monsters who is pretty unique but not a super robot.(Astro boy, Megaman, Metroid, Swat Kats, ect, ect). Which is supposedly the core concepts of the super robot genre, even though you can do everything in them even if you replace the super robot(the machine) with a different one.(Ridiculously human robot, robot maid, power armor and cool plane respectively)

We're not talking about theory, though, we're talking about reality - and in reality, there are, according to the page, a large number of shows where that "amazing machine" is a super robot - enough that I think it's a valid genre on its own, even if it may be a subtrope of something else. Likewise, as Deboss and I said last page, there are enough distinctive points about "real robot" military SF that it also can be considered a subgenre. "the robots replace everything but The Battlestar" seems to be a legitimate distinction, for instance.

Normally I am better at catching that kind of thing. Anyway, its not a theory to be dismissed when examples are actually given to prove it. You kind of have to falsify the theory, evidence and all, first...oh well, I guess that is what happens when you let a debate go on for two pages before you get involved in it again.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
 121 Native Jovian, Wed, 9th Oct '13 11:06:15 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
I'm not sure what you're saying. That Super Robot Genre isn't a trope because there are shows with similar concepts that don't have mecha? The initial conversation was about whether the "super robot" was splittable from "super robot genre" and "real robot" splittable from "real robot genre" — no one was really arguing that the super robot genre wasn't a thing, the question was whether it was possible to separate it from the super robots themselves. I've argued that yes, they are (see here for the most succinct version of the argument), but you seem to be arguing that we should have a "super robot" trope but not a "super robot genre" trope? What trope would super robot shows fall under, in that case?
 122 Cider, Thu, 10th Oct '13 8:08:01 AM from Not New York Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
Yes, people were arguing that super robot genre was not a thing. But that's not here or now. Just the point that I wish I had kept a better eye on this tread, that we have moved on from that debate before it was even finished. note 
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
 123 Native Jovian, Thu, 10th Oct '13 12:41:50 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
I think "having giant robots in it" is at least worthy of a subtrope of a more generic "Ideal Hero vs Monster of the Week action genre" trope, should one exist or we decide to create one. You could use the same logic you're presenting to argue for lumping things like Magical Girl, Sentai, and Superhero.

Anyway, I think the real thing that shows that the robots and the genre are separate tropes is the fact that one can appear without the other. Super robots can show up in the Real Robot Genre or even non-mecha shows entirely, and the Super Robot Genre can feature real robots as well as other kinds of mecha.

The idea is that Mecha Show is a thing, so Super Robot Genre and Real Robot Genre are subtropes of that. I'm not opposed to having a more general trope that would cover everything in those tropes without being mecha-specific, but I'm not aware of any such tropes, so the idea is to create one so we have someplace to put those examples.
Anyway, I think the real thing that shows that the robots and the genre are separate tropes is the fact that one can appear without the other. Super robots can show up in the Real Robot Genre or even non-mecha shows entirely, and the Super Robot Genre can feature real robots as well as other kinds of mecha.
The same applies to Magical Girl, Sentai and Super Hero - all of those can appear in a show that isn't about them, but they don't have separate pages for the show and character.

edited 12th Oct '13 9:04:40 AM by Prime32

 
 125 Native Jovian, Sat, 12th Oct '13 2:22:35 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
The difference is that the definition of those genres is "stars a Magical Girl / Sentai team / Super Hero", where as a show featuring a Real Robot may be in the Super Robot Genre (eg, Dai-Guard) and vice versa (eg, ∀ Gundam).

Again: if there's a better place to list examples that we've been putting on the "genre" pages, then I'm all for that. But as of now, I'm not aware of any — which is why the plan is to create one.

Single Proposition: Super Robot Genre
9th May '12 1:51:12 PM
Vote up for yes, down for no.
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