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DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#32326: Oct 13th 2012 at 4:16:17 AM

[up][up][up]

"We still trained them for our stupid war with the USSR."

We trained them so they could take back there country that the U.S.S.R had just invaded and was currently committing genocide in

"And, uh, a lot. I mean, we're currently crippling Iran's economy with sanctions"

We're slowing them down, not stopping them. There still building those nuclear weapons.

"Czechoslovakia got invaded, which, I should note, sparked protests across the Eastern Bloc, such as in Moscow itself, and neither Romania nor Albania participated"

Albania had left the Eastern Bloc by that time.

"They were defeated by economics, which sanctions could've achieved just as well as tons and tons of wars"

No, it couldn't. The USSR fell because for some reason the Soviet Government decided to match every dollar the US spent in military spending despite that this, from a finical viewpoint, was incredibly stupid. Economic Sanctions could not replicate that, not even remotely.

Also because as mentioned Gorbachev was an idiot.

"Why were we fighting Communism?"

For the same reason we fought Nazism.

"Why did we not take any of the other less morally reprehensible methods to fight Communism?"

A mix of poor decisions, lack of trust, lack of foresight, and lack of options.

Look I may see the US as the slighter shade of grey/black when compared to the USSR, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything that we did during The Cold War (especially during the Nixon administration). There are many decisions I wish we hadn't made, but that doesn't mean there weren't times when we had to align ourselves with the occasional dictatorship. Sometimes a shady decision had to be made. Sometimes the the moral choice wasn't the right choice.

edited 13th Oct '12 4:22:40 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#32327: Oct 13th 2012 at 4:24:54 AM

Dems lead GOP in battleground states voter registration.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#32329: Oct 13th 2012 at 4:30:31 AM

[up]

Yeah that's the stuff.

But moving back to Syria, do you guys think Obama or Romney would pick a war there?

edited 13th Oct '12 4:37:06 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
PotatoesRock The Potato's Choice Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I know
The Potato's Choice
#32330: Oct 13th 2012 at 4:42:01 AM

With regards to Romney, that requires him to actually have an opinion that sticks for more than 3 seconds. (So it depends on public opinion and how many Republicans are in charge.)

The Obama administration seems to be leaning towards "let's avoid getting involved too much, and arm rebels via friendly nations. And if Turkey attacks and wants NATO back up, do that. But best to avoid pissing the Mid East off more by feeding them more fuel for Neo Western Imperialism conspiracy theories.". So Obama seems to be "not unless we have to."

edited 13th Oct '12 4:43:15 AM by PotatoesRock

Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. - Douglas Adams
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#32331: Oct 13th 2012 at 4:45:24 AM

@Braeburn: Do you know why we armed and trained them? It wasn't from the goodness of our hearts. It wasn't to stop the genocide. It was to turn Afghanistan into the USSR's Vietnam. Stopping the genocide was incidental. Sure, stopping genocide is always a good thing, but it definitely wasn't why we were there, and arming them and training them wasn't the only way we could help them out.

We have crippled their economy. We have destroyed their money. There are a growing number of protestors, so, pretty soon, they're going to have more important things to deal with than nuclear weapons.

Not the point of what I said.

And it's just that sort of stupid decisions that would've helped the sanctions cripple the USSR, just as it helped the many wars cripple the USSR.

...We fought Nazism because A: they invaded key allies, and B: it's a deplorable system that focuses on an overly powerful military and a glorification of war. Communism is a system of government in which the poor overthrow the rich to form a more equal economic spread. While I disagree with the concept of the Just War that is inherent to the system, and while communism in the USSR became a horrible dictatorship under Stalin, if we had attempted to work with the new communistic countries that were popping up because of revolutions within many countries, we could've helped stem the influence of the USSR on the countries, and help them become more free than the USSR ever was, while still maintaining the same sort of economic principles that are central to communism. It was hardly a great evil, like so many make it out to be, but a decent governmental system that required evil actions to form.

And I'm arguing that a better course of action, if we were more trusting or had more foresight or considered more options, we could've found much more moral paths to take that would never have involved propping up horrible dictatorships in the name of freedom.

Regardless, I believe we may have derailed for long enough, so what do you say we wrap things up?

@Rock: On the contrary, Obama has been continuing the neoconservative foreign policy in the middle east, except he's been doing it smarter and more efficiently (see drone strikes). For example, his attacks in places such as Yemen were wholly unneeded. However, he probably won't send in troops. He may include some air support or some drones, but they won't be wars because no American will die, and everyone knows that if no American dies it isn't a war.

edited 13th Oct '12 4:48:30 AM by deathpigeon

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#32332: Oct 13th 2012 at 4:49:03 AM

^ @ deathpigeon: Welcome to Realpolitik.

Keep Rolling On
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#32333: Oct 13th 2012 at 4:53:15 AM

...I think I may have preferred a Realpolitik US in the Cold War, since it would be much more willing to work with communist nations and stuff like that, compared to the highly ideological response of "Communism BAD" that happened.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#32334: Oct 13th 2012 at 6:21:00 AM

[up]And, who knows? Without a communist witch hunt thanks to a more real way of dealing with, you know... the world, the US might have developed a more healthy social framework and agenda at home when it was cheaper to do so. You know, like most other First World countries did.

Just saying.

edited 13th Oct '12 6:22:00 AM by Euodiachloris

#32335: Oct 13th 2012 at 8:33:51 AM

To be fair, "communism bad" was a pretty reasonable conclusion based on the limited sample size available to us. The USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, and most of the Warsaw pact countries were all regimes that no free country could support in good conscience.

<><
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#32336: Oct 13th 2012 at 8:42:28 AM

@deathpigeon: You do realize, don't you, that sanctioning Iran and crippling their economy has just made the Iranian people hate us, right? Support for nuclear weaponry has skyrocketed in Iran.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#32337: Oct 13th 2012 at 8:42:38 AM

That's very true but somewhere along the line that got translated into "Any idea slightly to the left of a capitalism is bad!" which caused socialism and government programs that are essential to be painted as un-American or left-wing. People also fail to take into account that you can be a communist without being an authoritarian. Just because Stalin or Mao didn't fall into this group doesn't mean it's not possible.

I'm not saying a fear of communism wasn't perfectly justified in the 50s-70s but America is still stuck in that outdated mindset and at this point it's hindering us far more than it's helping.

edited 13th Oct '12 8:43:38 AM by Kostya

#32338: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:12:47 AM

Just because Stalin or Mao

Or Kim Jong-il or Castro or Tito or Rákosi or Ceaușescu or Pol Pot or...

<><
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#32340: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:17:39 AM

[up][up]

Seriously people, Communism well always lead to a dictatorship.

How many times must it be tried (and result in failure) before people realize it was a horrible idea?

edited 13th Oct '12 9:22:33 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#32341: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:26:05 AM

Communism is crazy because it presumes that a brutal dictatorship that is supposedly for the proletariat will eventually transition into a stateless utopian society. This just flies in the face of common sense.

theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#32342: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:27:18 AM

[up][up][up]That is a shameful thing to do with the man's death.

The Reaper Games starts anew.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#32343: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:28:13 AM

[up]

Agreed.

Obama: I "refused to let Detroit go bankrupt"

edited 13th Oct '12 9:33:22 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#32344: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:33:51 AM

And that's why I feel there needs to be a government that's elected rather than a dictatorship or no government at all. Anarchy just doesn't work and neither does a dictatorship because eventually one will just lead to the other. Republics have their own problems but they're accountable in theory. Obviously we have our own problems with that but that's why I feel laws that regulate how the government behaves and laws that work to stamp out corruption need to be either enforced or remodeled.

#32345: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:36:21 AM

Yeah, the solution to corruption is to tell the corrupt people to pass more laws to regulate themselves. I don't see any possible problem with that plan.

<><
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#32346: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:40:44 AM

The problem is it soon becomes a case of Hitler Ate Sugar

ANYTHING even SLIGHTLY related to communism (like socialism or single payer health) is instantly turned into COMMUNIIIIIIISM!

#32347: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:44:18 AM

It's not really Hitler Ate Sugar, because those policies really do stem from the same philosophy that full-fledged communism stems from. It's more like Hitler Used Aggressive Foreign Policy: it doesn't necessarily follow that it's bad for everyone, but it is a cause for concern.

<><
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#32348: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:49:57 AM

No its a stupid slippery slope fallacy

Because you know, the moment we allow health care for everyone, next thing we know COMMUNISM.

There was a woman on MSNBC's crowd who said Obama is a communist and never even elaborated how or why or what she meant by communism. Just "I know he is!"

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#32349: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:50:38 AM

It's been years since history class, but was there anything really socialist about the so called National Socialists? Or was it more like how North Korea calls itself a "Democratic People's Republic"?

[up]It's embarrassing to live in a country where nuclear war is considered a reasonable option but health care for all is the devil.

edited 13th Oct '12 9:53:21 AM by Morgikit

HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#32350: Oct 13th 2012 at 9:54:16 AM

Those sorts of people are what I like to call the uptight moralists who don't actually have morals. Welfare programs go against their principles, but outright murder and torture are fine as long as it's not happening to us or one of our allies.

edited 13th Oct '12 9:58:32 AM by HilarityEnsues


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