GirlNextDoor: Girl Next Door

Let's vote on this. Is a Yamato Nadeshiko the Girl Next Door?

...no. Not even a little. These tropes have pretty much nothing to do with each other. They can overlap, but not because their definitions are the same.

EDIT: Okay, so re-reading the description, they're more similar than that, but I still say they're not the same.

edited 5th Jul '11 11:09:45 AM by Discar

Yamato Nadeshiko: "Basically it revolves around acting for the benefit of the family and obeying and assisting authority figures (father, husband, sometimes father-in-law or older brothers, as well as older females of similar personality traits). Virtues include loyalty, domestic ability, wisdom, maturity, and humility. "

Girls Next Door: "The girl next door is used to indicate what is seen as average and wholesome femininity. ...She's the kind of girl the male main character might have known and been friends with all his life. She's easy to talk to like a tomboy but she doesn't force her presence on anybody, or she keeps to herself like a Naive Everygirl or Cool Loser while not rejecting social interaction..."

No, they are not the same.

edited 5th Jul '11 11:25:10 AM by Madrugada

If the OP doesn't even have a direct issue to fix, why isn't this in Wiki Talk?

By the way, while they are different by definition, a very large number of Yamato Nadeshiko also happen to be Girl Next Door, because in many Japanese works, the same girl is the "token normal", also happens to encompass traditional Japanese values.

edited 5th Jul '11 6:43:04 PM by EternalSeptember

Actually, there really shouldn't be any overlap. One is sort of the Japanese ideal. One is the American. It's very hard to be both.

And the Yamato Nadeshiko can be in an historic setting while the Girl Next Door is usually in a more modern one.

Plus, on the femininity spectrum, the former leans more towards the feminine side while the Girl Next Door is a few notches more towards the other side.

edited 5th Jul '11 8:18:25 PM by chihuahua0

This is true, the Girl Next Door doesn't tend to be a Tom Boy, but she's often One of the Boys and she tends to have been playing with boys for a long time. The Yamato Nadeshiko does not tend to have the same relationship with her male friends, and there's never a time where they don't see her as a girl.

edited 5th Jul '11 8:27:34 PM by shimaspawn

If I were asked for a single adjective that can almost always be correctly applied to the Girl Next Door, I'd say "perky".

I have only seen very few Yamato Nadeshiko that would be "Perky" but they do exist.

Kanako in Maria Holic pretty much calls all her friends "Yamato Nadeshiko" including Kiri (who actually comes off as more of a parody of the friendly "normal" girl who is always prepared for anything and I mean anything she has it in her purse.) and probably closer to Girl Next Door than Yamato Nadeshiko.

(Kanako is a umm a Lesbian, Yuri Fan and rather delusional...)

Perky alone doesn't make a Girl Next Door. Is she girly but still considered one of the guys? Is she warm and open and easy going? Is she almost generically American from Anytown USA so that a Western audience can instantly relate to her even if they don't really flesh out her personality? Those are all traits of the Girl Next Door.

And lesbian rules her out right off the bat. You have to be straight to be a Girl Next Door.

edited 5th Jul '11 9:25:58 PM by shimaspawn

No, perkiness alone isn't enough. That's not what I said. I said if I had to pick one quality which is virtually always present, it would be perkiness.

The lesbian is the main character the others are straight (As far as the show goes) you would have to see it ><.

Bah forget it I don't feel like arguing today.

edited 5th Jul '11 9:50:01 PM by Raso

The traits I listed are the ones that I always notice. They're almost universal. She's sweet, perky, wholesome, and American as apple pie. It's almost unheard of to have one that isn't white.

edited 5th Jul '11 9:56:10 PM by shimaspawn

The OP does have a have a direct issue to fix. We've been having this discussion for a while now on the main page and not. If there is any overlap in the definitions then it needs to be mentioned on the Girl Next Door page. If not then it and any examles of it need to be removed. Everone will have their option and nothing can be proven so if we can have a majority agree one way or the other then we'll make it final.

I think this is more than just Japanese vs American. I've seen Girl Next Door in British works and Bollywood movies. I suspect it can be found throughout Europe and Latin America, and probably in Africa and the Middle-East as well.

But they normally have different portrayals in each of those cultures. It's a trope that always has a very cultural specific twist to it. There's a very different way it's portrayed in American vs. British vs. Bollywood works. In part this is because the trope at it's very core is about reflecting the values of the culture that produced the work. That's part of why she's an ideal.

edited 6th Jul '11 12:02:49 PM by shimaspawn

So we need a supertrope and regional variations? (I'm not entirely convinced, though I wouldn't oppose.)

While Yamato Nadeshiko could hardly appear in the west, as it has asian nuances by definition, and a western equivalent would be Proper Lady, Girl Next Door can easily happen in Japan as well, as the trope's American origin isn't a fundamental part of the description, and it doesn't have a direct Japanese equivalent.

And a character can easily can be both, because they don't contradict each other. Girl Next Door is an ordinary, accessible, down-to-earth Betty, representing normal life, and home. Yamato Nadeshiko is a dutiful, organized woman, representing the traditional Japanese way of life.

But from a Japanese perspective, "home" and "Japan" mean the same thing.

So, if there is a lineup of girls, for example in To Love Ru, that mostly consists of alien princesses, assassins, and ghosts, etc, it's obvious that the one girl whose "hat" is being a normal Betty, will also represent being normal in a traditionally Japanese way.

Even in casts with more realistic characters, the members will have "hats", like being a psychopatic tsundere, or an over-the-top Ojou, the most normal, accessible character will likely also be the most traditional.

edited 7th Jul '11 9:32:47 AM by EternalSeptember

To anyone who doesen't think that the Girl Next Door and the Yamato Nadeshiko can overlap I would ask you to watch Ai Yori Aoshi and tell me that Aoi-chan doesn't apply to both.

I have. She doesn't play up any of the typical things I associate with a Girl Next Door. She's a great example of how they can't really overlap. They're almost opposite personality tropes.

edited 7th Jul '11 11:19:52 AM by shimaspawn

To the OP.

No. They are not the same thing. At all.

They can overlap, though actually they don't that often. Aoi is actually not a good example of an overlap. Minami is a better example of overlap.

The key to understand this trope is to realize that to most boys, girls are the mysterious other. They are different and removed from normal existence for boys. As one fellow put it when reminiscing about his boyhood "I lived in a world of men." For boys, social groups are usually dominated by other males.

Except of course, for the Girl Next Door. Why? Because she lives next door. So you interact with her naturally. You see her all the time and talk with her like you would with any neighbor. Overtime this term expanded to include any girl who was this "type" of easily approachable girl that a boy can interact normally with, without all that "female mystery" stuff. This can often overlap with things such as Tomboy and One of the Boys. But not always. Not all Tomboys are the Girl Next Door, and many Girl Next Door types are not Tomboys. The Girl Next Door is actually a pretty big trope that can overlap with a bunch of other female personality tropes.

Yamato Nadeshiko on the other hand often does accentuate the "mystery of women" aspects. This is because a Yamato Nadeshiko is usually reserved and refined, and thus harder to approach. Now this isn't always the case. There are a few overlaps, usually with Childhood Friend types. Minami is an example of a very familiar girl who behaves in a very traditional Yamato Nadeshiko way, and appeals as a girl who upholds the traditional Japanese gender roles.

But they are not the same tropes at all.

edited 7th Jul '11 3:57:39 PM by Sackett

There has been an influx of modern Japanese types that would fit Girl Next Door types like Nami Hito from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, Kiri from Maria Holic (despite being called Yamato Nadeshiko in universe she doesnt fit all that much, she comes across as this a lot more.) Kaoru from Amagami SS

A harem set in modern times will have one most of the time.

edited 7th Jul '11 7:36:32 PM by Raso

Yes, I'd agree that the Girl Next Door is a universal trope and occurs in Japan just as it does in Western countries, just that it is not the same thing as a Yamato Nadeshiko.

So is there any actual problem with the page? We've established that it's not the same, so any further conversation about which characters might be both belongs on Trope Talk. Unless there's some other issue, let's lock this and get rid of the tag on Girl Next Door.

Yeah, as far as I can tell the OP was looking more for a discussion then proposing a change- unless he was suggesting we merge Yamato Nadeshiko and Girl Next Door, which is not going to happen.