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GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#1: Jul 3rd 2011 at 1:41:46 PM

Seeing as the elusive mountain state with its delicious chocolate and crafty bankers has come up in conversation, lets make a thread for it.

So... thats a lot of debt. 1.2 trillion dollars?!

Its tiny.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
nzm1536 from Poland Since: May, 2011
#2: Jul 3rd 2011 at 1:45:54 PM

I think that Switzerland has lead and still leads a very reasonable politics. They skillfully avoid the most common directions of European politics (centralization, big government, participation in international organizations) and still manage to be succesful with it. While far from perfect, I think it gets pretty close (for a modern country anyway) to my idea of how the state should be run and if anything in politics depended on me, I'd happily implement certain Swiss solutions

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey
CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#3: Jul 3rd 2011 at 2:03:15 PM

Who worries about external debt? Is their evidence that countries with high absolute levels of external debt do poorly or are unstable?

Switzerland has public debt accounting for 38% of it's GDP - on par with Ukraine and Montenegro. Who cares?

edited 3rd Jul '11 2:15:03 PM by CTrombley

Mathematics Is A Language.
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#4: Jul 3rd 2011 at 2:24:19 PM

Well, interest payments take their toll. Other than that... not much. Its just expensive to have all that debt on the books.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#5: Jul 3rd 2011 at 2:55:42 PM

Funding a bathtub big enough to put a navy in is expensive!

It really depends on what their deficit is more than their immediate debt. Nobody's going to push the Switz to pay off.

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#6: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:11:27 PM

What do you mean by deficit? Also, do you have any evidence or theory when you say that "It really depends on what their deficit is more than their immediate debt" or are you going on intuition? What exactly depends on the difference between a nation's deficit _____ and it's debt obligations?

Mathematics Is A Language.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#7: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:17:58 PM

I could have 100,000 dollars in debt, but be paying it off, or be sinking deeper into debt.

Same applies to nations.

And applying it as a percentage of GDP is also worthwhile, since countries don't have to pay off their debt, but are continual operations.

edited 3rd Jul '11 4:20:33 PM by blueharp

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#8: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:22:06 PM

Yes, I understood that part of it but I don't think that you've addressed the above questions.

Mathematics Is A Language.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#9: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:24:05 PM

Then maybe you need to articulate your questions better. You may think you're asking something, but I just don't see your inquiries as meaningful, or needing any expansion further than what I said in the first place.

edited 3rd Jul '11 4:26:57 PM by blueharp

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#10: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:32:01 PM

"What do you mean by deficit?"

I don't see the connection to a trade deficit. The balance of payments deficit is included the debt, so you can't mean that. A nation's spending must, by definition, already take into account debt obligations. So I don't know what you mean by "their deficit".

"What exactly depends on the difference between a nation's deficit _____ and it's debt obligations?"

Do you simply mean that if the debt is allowed to go to infinity then the coffers of the state will be deplenished (or, more directly, it's ability to borrow)? Or do you think that there is some effect by debt obligations on the welfare of the debtor nation?

"Also, do you have any evidence or theory when you say that 'It really depends on what their deficit is more than their immediate debt.' or are you going on intuition?"

This sentence was written assuming you felt that their was some influence of a nation's debts on it's people's welfare. In this case, you would be able to tell me why or that this connection exists.

Does this clear up what I asked for?

EDIT: I made a small error that may have made something I said confusing. Sorry.

edited 3rd Jul '11 4:38:35 PM by CTrombley

Mathematics Is A Language.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#11: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:37:35 PM

Yes, you didn't follow my words at all. I can't help you with that. Hate to sound rude over it, but I just know it wouldn't be worth my attempting to explain it to you, as I can see there's a disconnect in communication.

I'll just repeat what I said, their debt, nobody is going to make them pay it off.

edited 3rd Jul '11 4:42:09 PM by blueharp

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#12: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:45:22 PM

It would not take a particularly large amount of time. Allow me to write down an efficient form for writing the answer:

What is in deficit is (say) spending.
The concern is with state coffers. (or GDP or income or ...)
I am going by intuition. (or the Heckscher-Ohlin model or Gravity model or ...)

You see? Very brief.

Mathematics Is A Language.
CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#13: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:50:36 PM

I'll just repeat what I said, their debt, nobody is going to make them pay it off.

Then what are the consequences of running high debt? I mean, I can think of plenty (they'll scare off foreign investment, find getting loans difficult, reduce their credibility in monetary policy...), but I already understand my ideas about debt.

EDIT: Those consequences for running high debt are merely intuition, I have not yet looked to make sure it's difficult for high debt states to get loans, etc.

edited 3rd Jul '11 4:55:05 PM by CTrombley

Mathematics Is A Language.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#14: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:54:47 PM

[up]I'm sorry, I left out a word I included earlier:

"immediate"

My bad, I included it in the first place but overlooked it this time.

[up][up]I have no idea what you're trying to say in your examples, but it wasn't an issue of immediate time, but futility. These posts are accomplishing nothing, we aren't exchanging information effectively at all.

edited 3rd Jul '11 4:57:36 PM by blueharp

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#15: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:57:19 PM

No, I understood that. In the above post I am asking what the punishment would be for a state that doesn't meet it's debt obligations, even the immediate ones.

Mathematics Is A Language.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#16: Jul 3rd 2011 at 4:58:38 PM

That would be as variable as for individuals. Possibly more so. A general comment would be pointless.

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#17: Jul 3rd 2011 at 5:03:32 PM

Why do you think a general comment would be useless? Isn't it better to say something, mean it and find out if your wrong than say things that you cannot commit to a plain meaning? Even if you think it is variable, couldn't you just specify more constraints ("for a medium sized, landlocked, horse country ...") and tell me the plain meaning in that special case?

EDIT: Alternatively, you could point me towards a book (or group of books) or website (or group of websites) (or group of books and websites) that explains the effects of national debt in detail.

edited 3rd Jul '11 5:06:31 PM by CTrombley

Mathematics Is A Language.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#18: Jul 3rd 2011 at 5:07:54 PM

This thread is supposed to be about Switzerland, I'm not going to participate in further derailing.

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#19: Jul 3rd 2011 at 5:15:44 PM

Derailing? It has been awhile since I've been here...

Besides, we are talking about Switzerland. I want you to explain what debt is and it's effects are so that we can apply to the specific case of a Switzerland. It's often easier to know and communicate the general case and apply to a specific situation than a specific one.

For instance, if you said "Debt will erode investor confidence." I could point to Switzerland's very high credit rating.

Mathematics Is A Language.
blueharp Since: Dec, 1969
#20: Jul 3rd 2011 at 5:19:10 PM

Please don't put words in my mouth, especially words that are completely the opposite of anything I've said.

edited 3rd Jul '11 5:20:29 PM by blueharp

ssfsx17 crazy and proud of it Since: Jun, 2009
crazy and proud of it
#21: Jul 3rd 2011 at 5:20:04 PM

It would also help to see who put money into Switzerland's sovereign stuff, and how much of it, as opposed to putting their money in the various private banks of Switzerland.

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#22: Jul 3rd 2011 at 5:34:44 PM

Please put some there to dislodge mine! :P

But seriously, you're right, I should have said "If one said 'Debt will erode investor confidence.', then another could point to Switzerland's very high credit rating.", without the implication that you and I are in disagreement or that you or I had any particular feelings about debts.

It would also help to see who put money into Switzerland's sovereign stuff, and how much of it, as opposed to putting their money in the various private banks of Switzerland.

I don't know why that would help or what with, but you can see bond yields here if you'd like. I'm not a very sophisticated investor in the bond market, but if you're interested in the worth of Swiss government debt, it's there.

EDIT: Didn't mean to sound so aggressive there. But what would that help with?

edited 3rd Jul '11 5:37:59 PM by CTrombley

Mathematics Is A Language.
ssfsx17 crazy and proud of it Since: Jun, 2009
crazy and proud of it
#23: Jul 3rd 2011 at 5:41:46 PM

That data would help with the assertion that nobody will make Switzerland pay its debt. Some investors and countries will stick with something as long as it's more stable than everything else - hence why China hasn't called in its US debt. Some investors and countries may instead prefer to switch to whatever that will give good ROI in the short or medium term.

I don't really imagine anyone investing in Swiss sovereign stuff for anything other than the long term, but it's always good to have evidence.

CTrombley The Good Troper Since: Jan, 2001
The Good Troper
#24: Jul 3rd 2011 at 5:48:37 PM

Ah, yes, I understand. Thank you very much!

Well, of course, S&P has given them a AAA rating, but that's no great shakes anymore... If I knew heads from tails from the bond market, I could try to tell how the yields look. I will ask a friend of mine who is a sophisticated bond market man. But I won't see him until at least the 5th ... oh well, Switzerland will still be there.

Mathematics Is A Language.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#25: Nov 30th 2014 at 10:23:49 AM

Since this is supposed to be the thread for all things Switzerland, I'd like to ask this important question...

How did the Swiss people become so multiethnic/multicultural? To wit, none of the dominant ethno-cultural groups of the population are unique to the country, but rather they're shared with countries that are or were major European powers throughout the history of Switzerland.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

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