European Politics Thread

Same. Unfortunately that's unlikely to come to pass.

But hey, we've celebrated fifty years of not kicking the piss out of each other, so we've at least made some progress.

Even though Germany is mostly secular, the villages are still very much steeped in religious traditions. There is a reason why the CSU, which is only active in Bavaria which in turn started out as a peasant start (and still is one past Munich), is the most conservative branch in German government. I guess it is similar in France, where you have on the one hand the big cities with all the immigrants and tourists and on the other hand the rural villages.

In principle it is not that different from the US, except that pilgrims were a VERY conservative branch of Christianity. Christian communities in Germany and France tend to be pretty sane, because they did the whole holy war thing already and did realize that it sucks.

In 'for fuck's sake' news this week:

Danish soldiers in Iraq suspect Iraqi security forces of torturing suspects on their shared military base. The MOD says it cannot investigate Iraqi wrongdoing, in spite of the Minister of Defense himself saying Danish soldiers would not be collaborating with coalition forces abusing human rights.

Also, the Prime Minister wants to ban NGO rescue organizations from operating in the Mediterranean to 'disincentivise' refugees from crossing.

NGO rescue organizations are in the sights of the EU as well, due to uninentional/intentional collaboration with organised crime (human trafficking).

What kind of rescue organizations and what definition of human trafficking?

NG Os that rescue the people (refugees, illegal immigrants etc.) left adrift after the traffickers abandon them, creating a pipeline to Europe. In other words, the NG Os and organised crime are part of the same flow of people and reinforce each other. It's a vicious problem, as you can't exactly leave people to drown.

Libya (for what it's worth) has already told the NG Os to stop doing it as they feed local criminal organizations, fixers and others.

This could be remedied by handling everything in the departure countries, but that requires money, resources and cooperation. So nobody wants to do it, unless everyone pitches in. Which when you add politics, will not happen. Unless someone is very clever.

I see that as a problem with laws against immigration. If those people could legally move to other countries, they wouldn't need organized criminals to help them do it.

Well there's also the problem of laws against emigration...

It could be like in the US, where being born in Nowhere, Alabama, doesn't preclude you from moving to New York... so long as you can find yourself a job. We'd live in a saner world that way.

edited 28th Jun '17 5:25:05 AM by TheHandle

And the problem of people living in shitty conditions. That one is the root cause.

People live in extremely shitty conditions in Nowhere, Alabama. Children go barefoot, especially Black ones. And only the richest families can afford healthcare, because their State has decided to opt out of Obamacare. And they don't have proper Internet. And cops will use Civil Forfeiture to steal your stuff. And the mayor's office is kept clean by prison labor. All of it black. And don't get me started on how people live on the Reservation. (I'm making amalgamating stuff I heard from over the Deep South, but you get my point)

edited 28th Jun '17 5:30:01 AM by TheHandle

Sadly, most of this goes beyond the Deep South. Police disproportionately target black people in NYC too.

The NG Os could always be directed to return those found adrift to Libya, though I'd rather we just process people securely.

That is indeed the best of both worlds. No-one could possibly object to saving them and sending them back.

The people found adrift themselves? Presumably, they were trying to leave Libya, though they might prefer returning there to drowning.

Precisely. They were scammed. Sending them back is better in the long term.

RAND made a a pretty good blog post about the situation.

I personally would rather that they been processed within Europe, any legitimate asylum claims accepted and economic migrants returned, but I can understand the argument for jsut returning them all and saying "you want asylum, apply at X embassy".

And Merkel isn't a liberal. She's a conservative. She's going to be changing her views slowly if at all. Not to mention that (as was previously pointed out) Merkel really doesn't consider LGBT rights in Germany to be a top-shelf issue; she calls it "first world problems" and has other priorities for her political capital, especially as she's in permanent coalition with the CSU. Now that the SPD has come out in firm support of gay marriage, she's not going to spend any effort opposing it either.

C.f President Obama's "evolution" on gay rights.

Yep....Merkel has a number of views which can be considered liberal, but she is still a conservative at her core. And she never makes a decision which isn't calculated. But in her case being a conservative does mean that she believes in Christian values instead of just ignoring them whenever they become inconvenient, like a lot of conservatives do. And she actually believes in the law instead of trying to subvert it like a lot of politicians do.

The whole gay rights matter is nothing she would ever push because from her point of view, they are not hunted by the state and they are protected by the same laws everyone else is. In a way, she is not totally wrong about this. When it comes to equality, there is only so much the state can do, a lot of changes have to be carried from the society itself.

People forget that Merkel is a conservative because she looks downright tame compared to her counterparts (foreign and domestic) in the center-right and right-wing.

It's the tendency to see a virtuous person - thoughtful, competent, largely honest, and consistently trying to do what's best for Europe - and naturally assume that she shares our values.

x4 IMHO, that's what a conservative is suppposed to be like. At least, that's the kind of conservative I try to be. Yeah, I agree with a lot of "liberal" viewpoints now, but it took me a while to come around to them.

In general I'm slow to accept change, but I try not to be a dick about it.

edited 28th Jun '17 7:42:04 PM by M84

I mean, part of the reason Merkel looks as good as she does is because the conservative parties elsewhere have completely lost their fudge and come full circle, becoming the party of the aristocracy again.

They're becoming the parties of feudal nobility. Neo-feudalism? The UK has been heading in that direction for a while, especially under that pig-fucking tax-dodging austerity loving asshole David Cameron.